|
Post by CRTaylor on Apr 24, 2014 23:31:30 GMT
I'd rather have a big list of skills than a small list you have to build with modifiers. People end up adding skills to the list anyway, might as well have the full array already in place.
|
|
|
Post by tikiman on Apr 25, 2014 16:05:59 GMT
I'd rather have a big list of skills than a small list you have to build with modifiers. People end up adding skills to the list anyway, might as well have the full array already in place. Just as long as the list doesn't get TOO big...some games get these ridiculously long skill lists where many of the skill separations seem to be an exercise in splitting hairs. I can just see Steve Long doing that.
|
|
gojira
Double Digit Master
in a rubber monster suit.
Posts: 85
|
Post by gojira on Apr 30, 2014 21:01:18 GMT
Here's something else I've been thinking/wondering. Is +1 Speed really worth only 10 cp? It seems to me like it should be worth rather more, like 15 or 20 cp.
Consider a typical superhero game. Speed is probably in the range of 4 to 6. Just based on utility and mechanics, why wouldn't you spend the extra 20 points to get the max 6 Speed? It seems like a no brainer. There's not much I can think of that would be really "worth it" to spend the 20 points on instead. Yes you can gain a bit of extra utility, but the constant fighting in a typical superhero campaign makes more Speed a guaranteed useful ability. Especially with the current guidelines of 450 points for a "typical" superhero, 20 points is utterly trivial.
The same is true of a typical low powered game imo. Perhaps even more so, since the typical default speed in such a game might be 2, buying +2 Speed for 20 points gives you 2x the number of actions, instead of the 1.5x that 4 -> 6 gives you. Again out of 175 total points, spending 20 points seems utterly trivial and difficult to compensate for by spending the points somewhere else.
The more I think about this, the more I think the older (especially 3rd) editions of Hero were better, with fewer points to start with and things generally costing more points. It made for more meaningful ranges of options for a starting player.
It makes me want to put some things on a sliding, increasing point cost scale, although to be honest I don't truly favor the complexity that adds.
For example, Speed costs 25 points for the first +1, and doubles each additional +1
Cost Total Cost Speed 2 0 0 " 3 25 25 " 4 50 75 " 5 100 175 " 6 200 375
OK the cost is rather excessive at 6 speed, but up to that point it seems closer to what I think it should actually cost.
|
|
gojira
Double Digit Master
in a rubber monster suit.
Posts: 85
|
Post by gojira on Apr 30, 2014 21:19:57 GMT
I'd rather have a big list of skills than a small list you have to build with modifiers. People end up adding skills to the list anyway, might as well have the full array already in place. Thinking about this a bit, I think I'd like to see some actual rules for weening players off of other game systems. Like DnD has several skills that Hero lacks. I just ran into this list recently from RPG.net: bluff, concentation, intimidate, notice, sense motive. How should each of those be implemented in Hero? This might make the skill list longer but also might favor adoption by more folks. For example, since I don't care for limited skills, I'd say "Bluff" is Persuasion, with a -2 modifier because you're doing it fast. Etc. This does run into the problem of what to do about someone who is just good at Bluff/Fast Talk but isn't necessarily good at being silver-tongued in general. Since I don't want to make limited skills or increase the size skill list with every possible premutation of abilities, that's just the way the system works I guess. People are automatically good a both, and this skill system doesn't differentiate. Etc. I think some thought about how the gaming community in general sees "skills" might make Hero a little better.
|
|
|
Post by tikiman on Apr 30, 2014 22:38:59 GMT
I don't know... I find a lot of the "personal interaction" skills just take away from the roleplaying part of the game and turn it into rolling dice instead. Maybe it's a new style vs. old style thing.
As for SPD, in my games the range for a super hero is much lower, usually 2-4, unless the character can justify why his character is inhumanly fast as part of the concept. But we consider a STR of 15 to be darn good since it's twice your average man. Don't go much for the inflated attribute scores I see in so many write-ups where an otherwise normal guy with lasers out of his eyes suddenly has super strength for no apparent reason (in reality just to keep up with the Joneses). I think SPD is fairly cheap if you're playing the new versions of Champions with 300+ points to throw around...but I'm playing 4th edition and we have a lower point limit (when we even bother with points--generally it's "here's what this character should have" and "okay" or "nah, he's a little too much, knock down that nano-ray blast to 7D6").
|
|
|
Post by alcamtar on May 10, 2014 23:29:36 GMT
My biggest change would be in how powers work. I'd make advantages and limitations the same do it doesn't matter in what order you apply them. That would allow creating new "base powers" and get rid of silliness like the "mandatory limitation" on HA.
Another change would be to blame powers based on real points vs active points. Balancing with AP treats advantages as relevant and limitations as window dressing. Instead I'd separate advantages and limitations both into "power affecting" and "usage affecting" to get a better measure of balance.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
|
|
|
Post by CRTaylor on May 12, 2014 5:15:08 GMT
bluff I'd call conversation or charm, Intimidate is pretty much presence attacks and/or persuasion, Notice is their version of perception rolls, and sense motive is along the lines of deduction or perception.
|
|
|
Post by Tasha on May 17, 2014 0:36:38 GMT
My biggest change would be in how powers work. I'd make advantages and limitations the same do it doesn't matter in what order you apply them. That would allow creating new "base powers" and get rid of silliness like the "mandatory limitation" on HA. Another change would be to blame powers based on real points vs active points. Balancing with AP treats advantages as relevant and limitations as window dressing. Instead I'd separate advantages and limitations both into "power affecting" and "usage affecting" to get a better measure of balance. Be careful with HA. Either assume that it's a EB that has the "No Range" limitation or assume that HA is worth 5pts per die. If you make HA a 3pts/1d6 you end up with HUGE balance issues esp for GMs that use Active Cost to gauge the effectiveness of an ability. ie (Current rules) 10d6 HA is 50 active and has the -1/2 No range limitation 33 pts real, 3pts/die 33 active pts = 11d6. If PC buys to active pt cap of 50pts then the attack becomes 16.5d6 HA. Clearly broken. Other ways to fix the issue actually make things more complicated. The Second adds needless complication to a system that's already too complicated. I would be very tempted to make it all addition and subtraction. Buy the Base power (no way around multiplication here unfortunatly, at least it's simple). Advantages would act like adders and make a power more expensive ie a half advantage would increase the cost of a power by 10, what was a +1 would increase it by 20 pts or so. Limitations would work the opposite. Pretty much mirroring the FUZION Superpowers plug in, the difference being that all powers would be included in their 6e forms. Also all limitations and Advantages would be available as well.
|
|
|
Post by CRTaylor on May 17, 2014 5:51:06 GMT
I don't really understand why HTA has a limitation on it automatically. Its equivalent to HKA with normal damage, so why the modifier to begin with?
The problem with straight adders instead of multipliers is that its fixed to a given power level. Whats a reasonable adder at 300 point characters is way too much at 150 points and laughably small at 450 points.
|
|
|
Post by Tasha on May 17, 2014 10:08:58 GMT
I don't really understand why HTA has a limitation on it automatically. Its equivalent to HKA with normal damage, so why the modifier to begin with? The problem with straight adders instead of multipliers is that its fixed to a given power level. Whats a reasonable adder at 300 point characters is way too much at 150 points and laughably small at 450 points. HA, isn't 5 pts per 1d6 because no one in their right mind would buy the power. Because Strength with a Limitation (Only does damage) or Blast (No Range) would both be cheaper and make as much sense as an ability. I guess if you explicitly said that Blast couldn't add to Strength, but even then you would have people buying Strength with the Only does damage, no lifting etc. limit. I would want to keep the Adders smallish so they would still make sense for dc5-7 games. I wouldn't worry much about games above dc20. Hero advantages become ridiculously expensive after DC16. I would rather have the game work best at the dc 5-14 range. The Adders in the cost range that I suggest have already been extensively playtested during the Fuzion rollout. They worked just fine. They will disappear when used on DC 20+ Games, but we don't have to worry about those. The Ridiculous overpower range beyond that is already spending so many points the even the current system doesn't discomfit the 1000pt mega villian that does. BTW Total character points have no bearing on this discussion. Only Active point totals will allow us to reason our way though this idea. Because you can write up a DC 8 (40 active point) character and spend 500 points. I have seen DC 16 characters written up in less than 300 total points.
|
|
|
Post by CRTaylor on May 17, 2014 15:23:56 GMT
HA, isn't 5 pts per 1d6 because no one in their right mind would buy the power. Because Strength with a Limitation (Only does damage) or Blast (No Range) would both be cheaper and make as much sense as an ability. I guess if you explicitly said that Blast couldn't add to Strength, but even then you would have people buying Strength with the Only does damage, no lifting etc. limit. But isn't Hand-to-Hand Killing Attack simply a no-range killing attack that adds strength damage? Its not cheaper to buy no range RKA because that doesn't add strength. What's the difference? It seems to me that total points matter because if you have 300 points to spend, 5 points is nothing, but if you only have 100 points to spend, its 1/20th of your total points. So the total amount of points you have to spend makes the relative cost of an adder less significant than a multiplier. If the active cost totals of games were the same always it would be less of a problem, but if the total points allowed in games tends to also be reflected in active costs; that 450 point game will often have a higher active point total than that 250 point one. And further, different genres tend to have different active point totals. A Fantasy Hero game with 175 point characters will usually have lower active point caps than the 400 point Champions game. That means the modifiers will cost more in the Champions game than the Fantasy Hero game, but the adders would be constant between both, but the points available to spend would not.
|
|
|
Post by Tasha on May 17, 2014 21:27:55 GMT
Point totals have changed with each edition of the game released. As more options became available or older options became more expensive. So Heroic games will end up adapting costs as will the Superhero games. Also since I would like to de emphasize points for Equipment and spells for Heroic games. Leaving characters the ability to spend points on skills and talents. I would still simplify the Math. Remember just as the Advantages would pump up the costs at lower point values, Limitations would properly negate the Advantages. Which is something that other's have wanted to explore. Going away from the current Advantages first, then Limitations will make limitations much more important. It does show that it's best to look at the whole idea instead of just looking at one small facet of the idea.
|
|
|
Post by indianajoe on May 18, 2014 2:26:09 GMT
I would want to keep the Adders smallish so they would still make sense for dc5-7 games. I wouldn't worry much about games above dc20. Hero advantages become ridiculously expensive after DC16. I would rather have the game work best at the dc 5-14 range. The Adders in the cost range that I suggest have already been extensively playtested during the Fuzion rollout. They worked just fine. They will disappear when used on DC 20+ Games, but we don't have to worry about those. The Ridiculous overpower range beyond that is already spending so many points the even the current system doesn't discomfit the 1000pt mega villian that does. I would price the adders to the base level (1 DC or equivalent) of the power, then multiply the combined cost by the number of levels.
|
|
|
Post by Tasha on May 18, 2014 6:44:20 GMT
I would want to keep the Adders smallish so they would still make sense for dc5-7 games. I wouldn't worry much about games above dc20. Hero advantages become ridiculously expensive after DC16. I would rather have the game work best at the dc 5-14 range. The Adders in the cost range that I suggest have already been extensively playtested during the Fuzion rollout. They worked just fine. They will disappear when used on DC 20+ Games, but we don't have to worry about those. The Ridiculous overpower range beyond that is already spending so many points the even the current system doesn't discomfit the 1000pt mega villian that does. I would price the adders to the base level (1 DC or equivalent) of the power, then multiply the combined cost by the number of levels. If I understand what you are saying it would make powers SUPER expensive.
|
|
|
Post by indianajoe on May 18, 2014 23:13:49 GMT
I would price the adders to the base level (1 DC or equivalent) of the power, then multiply the combined cost by the number of levels. If I understand what you are saying it would make powers SUPER expensive. No more expensive than they are now. Take a Blast (5 points/DC). Now, assume the adder for Armor Piercing is 1. Each DC of Blast, Armor Piercing would then be 6 points.
|
|