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Post by CRTaylor on Apr 20, 2014 2:12:25 GMT
Hm, so its MORE expensive now? (PS: canines being 2 points and adding 'canines' to animal familiarity being 1 point). That doesn't seem better to me.
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Post by Tasha on Apr 20, 2014 3:55:17 GMT
There are certainly some skills that could be consolidated. Acrobatics/Breakfall, Criminology/Forensic Medicine, and Lockpicking/Security Systems, for starters. High Society and Streetwise could be folded into Cultural Knowledge. Gambling, Forgery, and Weaponsmith can be made into background skills (PS: Gunsmith, for example). Animal Handler, Navigation, and Survival are now one skill each (as in Champions Complete), but require at least a Familiarity with the subject of the skill (KS: Canines for a dog trainer) or the roll is made at a penalty. Combat Driving, Combat Piloting, and Riding can probably be handled the same way, but I don't know what to call the umbrella skill. From an editorial standpoint, skills that require rolls might be separated from those that do not. High Society, Streetwise and Charm should probably be the same skill. CK High Society, CK Streetwise, and CK Working Class Perhaps having an umbrella skill and then having a Knowledge, Science, Profession etc to further divide skills down. For Weapon Familiarities. Do we really need the granularity that comes from all of those expensive Familarities. Perhaps they could be part of Hobby Skill: Hunting or Professional Skill: Naval Gunnery, PS Marine or PS Police Officer. Stressing that it's probably not worth stressing about who can use what weapons. The real thing that makes an expert is where their Combat skills and Martial Arts maneuvers are. Combat Transportation (Umbrella covering Piloting, Driving and Riding) might be too generalized, but maybe not. I would allow all skills to be bought 1 pt for an 8- (or a -3 to roll if roll high), 2 pts for 11-(base roll), and 3 pts for a skill roll based on a stat. 2 pts per +1 I would do this to keep everything based on the same pricing scheme.
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Post by Tasha on Apr 20, 2014 3:57:52 GMT
Hm, so its MORE expensive now? (PS: canines being 2 points and adding 'canines' to animal familiarity being 1 point). That doesn't seem better to me. of course PS Canines would cover MORE than just Transport Familiarity Canines. It would also be a skill that you could roll to gain a bonus for all Interaction Skills with Canines, Knowing what might be wrong if one is sick, everything that a KS would do.
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Post by CRTaylor on Apr 20, 2014 4:20:43 GMT
I would allow all skills to be bought 1 pt for an 8- (or a -3 to roll if roll high), 2 pts for 11-(base roll), and 3 pts for a skill roll based on a stat. 2 pts per +1 I would do this to keep everything based on the same pricing scheme. Sweet, if I have 10 in any stat I can save points by just buying the 2 point version!
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Post by Tasha on Apr 20, 2014 8:20:49 GMT
I would allow all skills to be bought 1 pt for an 8- (or a -3 to roll if roll high), 2 pts for 11-(base roll), and 3 pts for a skill roll based on a stat. 2 pts per +1 I would do this to keep everything based on the same pricing scheme. Sweet, if I have 10 in any stat I can save points by just buying the 2 point version! Sure there's nothing wrong with that. You can currently do that with KS, CK ,Sci, PS etc.
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Post by indianajoe on Apr 20, 2014 12:06:47 GMT
Hm, so its MORE expensive now? (PS: canines being 2 points and adding 'canines' to animal familiarity being 1 point). That doesn't seem better to me. It starts off a little more expensive, but you also get more because you would have comprehensive knowledge of the subclass. Additional categories are also cheaper. The, "Expert" Skill Enhancer would bring the cost down further.
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Post by indianajoe on Apr 20, 2014 12:55:30 GMT
There are certainly some skills that could be consolidated. Acrobatics/Breakfall, Criminology/Forensic Medicine, and Lockpicking/Security Systems, for starters. High Society and Streetwise could be folded into Cultural Knowledge. Gambling, Forgery, and Weaponsmith can be made into background skills (PS: Gunsmith, for example). Animal Handler, Navigation, and Survival are now one skill each (as in Champions Complete), but require at least a Familiarity with the subject of the skill (KS: Canines for a dog trainer) or the roll is made at a penalty. Combat Driving, Combat Piloting, and Riding can probably be handled the same way, but I don't know what to call the umbrella skill. From an editorial standpoint, skills that require rolls might be separated from those that do not. High Society, Streetwise and Charm should probably be the same skill. CK High Society, CK Streetwise, and CK Working Class For Weapon Familiarities. Do we really need the granularity that comes from all of those expensive Familarities. Perhaps they could be part of Hobby Skill: Hunting or Professional Skill: Naval Gunnery, PS Marine or PS Police Officer. Stressing that it's probably not worth stressing about who can use what weapons. The real thing that makes an expert is where their Combat skills and Martial Arts maneuvers are. Combat Transportation (Umbrella covering Piloting, Driving and Riding) might be too generalized, but maybe not. Putting Charm in with the CuKs seems odd. I've always seen it as, "the art of making someone feel obligated to you." The CuKs are more about knowing social rules. I've never seen Weapon Familiarities as being too expensive. If anything, the common ones are too cheap. (For 6 points, I know how to use 90% of the weapons you're likely to find in any setting.) I agree that buying all of the exotic ones would cost a fair chunk of points, but that strikes me as being a toolkit issue. Combat Transportation works if you pair it with a required Familiarity. The guy with Animal Handler, Combat Transportation, and KS: Equines knows how to care for a horse, train it, and ride it into battle.
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Post by CRTaylor on Apr 22, 2014 0:17:01 GMT
I don't mind folding skills together, but then you get the guy who just is good at picking locks and can't bypass an alarm system, for example.
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Post by Tasha on Apr 22, 2014 9:25:05 GMT
I don't mind folding skills together, but then you get the guy who just is good at picking locks and can't bypass an alarm system, for example. Which is what the current system is right now. You can buy Lockpicking and still not have Security Systems. Putting both Together you have someone that could do both and possibly have a PS or KS that could act as a complementary skill to one or the other.
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Post by Thia Halmades on Apr 22, 2014 13:40:13 GMT
I agree with CT here, Change Environment can go in any direction, and I've used it for things like "light," "darkness" and sound dampening fields. Super flexible.
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Post by CRTaylor on Apr 23, 2014 6:06:15 GMT
Yeah I didn't say that well. What I meant was if you take away the distinction between, say, lockpicking and security systems then someone who only knows one has to tweak the system just to buy it, which is the opposite of intuitive, to me at least. It shouldn't be more complex to make a simpler character.
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Post by tikiman on Apr 24, 2014 0:52:00 GMT
Just curious: what sort of things did you find useful to be codified when you found Hero? And also what version was that? I'm not talking about getting rid of everything or even most things related to builds. I think it's fine if there's a specific spell called "Light" that has a defined effect. But I want players especially to be able to come up with ideas based on concept or roleplay and not have to worry about rules, just common sense or whatever. Tasha's point above about body and def for items being all that was really needed is a good example. That's fine with me and handy during play if don't have to make up how tough something is. But you don't need a full build to be listed for each item to derive its body and def. Just list the body and def in a table. So I definitely see some room for simplification too. Another example: in Tuala Morn there's a spell called "Druid's Sleep." It's built as Mind Control, I think with a minimum target of +20. However neither the build nor the spell description says what the spell actually does. Is it mind control, or something else like "sleep only"? Builds aren't the be-all of rule clarification if the designer omits important details. It's better just to have an editor who can look for omissions. * * * OK, slightly new topic: What do folks think about pre-bulds, especially ones that just take basic rule elements and rename them? For example, what if PD and ED were renamed Toughness as a pre-build. Same cost and everything, just a better name that might be less intimidating to new players who might not care for the acronym soup of Hero. Any good ideas for basic game elements that could be renamed for clarity? I don't play 5th ed. as I like 4th, but that UNTIL book about different super powers and how to build them was fantastically revelatory. Saved me a lot of head-scratching trying to figure out how to put something together to do what it should. I think many potential players are turned off by having to figure out way too much stuff for themselves. Not saying that's a bad design but it's a horrible selling point, especially when so many potential players/customers are used to the D&D-type "This spell is called Lightning Bolt: it shoots lightning bolts" stuff...honestly, "Hmm, is this RKA cheaper than Energy Blast? Should it have Super Double Armor Penetration? Half END cost? Double invisible jive effect? What the heck is a Real Point again? Wait, I thought that was an Active Point? It's a Double-Jointed Gobbledygook Jargon Point and Newcomers Not Welcome?!"
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Post by CRTaylor on Apr 24, 2014 13:42:24 GMT
There's no question that making a character in Hero requires more thought and creativity than one in D20, but then that's always been true. No edition of Hero has avoided that simple fact, and it always, by its more flexible and open nature, been challenging to people who are turned away by that kind of thing.
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Post by Tasha on Apr 24, 2014 19:42:57 GMT
There's no question that making a character in Hero requires more thought and creativity than one in D20, but then that's always been true. No edition of Hero has avoided that simple fact, and it always, by its more flexible and open nature, been challenging to people who are turned away by that kind of thing. That's a problem in any system that is so open to possibilities. Some people take a look at the powers section and get brain freeze from all of the choices. That's why I try to get players to look beyond the the Rules when making a character. To write out in plain english what the character is going to be. Then after they write the character up that way. Go into the book and choose the bits that correspond to what they originally wrote.
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Post by indianajoe on Apr 24, 2014 23:16:12 GMT
I don't mind folding skills together, but then you get the guy who just is good at picking locks and can't bypass an alarm system, for example. Skills with Limitation would still be a thing. At some point you have to ask, "How many characters would know one of these skills and not the other?" If the answer isn "Not many," then it's time to think about combining them. I've also rethought requiring a KS Familiarity for some skills. It would be a useful toolkit option, but I'm not sure it should be required.
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