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Post by CRTaylor on Jan 28, 2014 17:43:11 GMT
A discussion of Dark Champions and Danger, International on this board brought up a good point. Instead of focusing on "Hero" in the titles (as ICE preferred), the game should focus on Champions. Its a pretty generic title for a hero or adventurer and it would definitely play off the good will and respect that the name Champions gets as a game. To this day people consider Champions the best superhero RPG even though there are some good competitors out there. Which got me thinking; if a new edition came out, what should it be like? Following the concept brought up in that thread, all the rules should follow this pattern: Fantasy Champions, Pulp Champions, Spy Champions etc. Focusing on Champions creates instant recognition and gives a greater understanding of the unity of the system than Champions/x hero. The first thing I'd do is slim the book down significantly. The first third of the 6th edition rules was introduction which while nice for a long time Hero player is a pointless slog for a new buyer - that stuff should go online, not in the book. We live in a great time right now where you can put info on line that's not key to the rules or a book. If Frank Herbert wrote Dune now or JRR Tolkien wrote the Lord of the Rings today, they could put all those appendices and notes on a cool website for everyone to read, and leave them out of the books. What many people on the Hero board begged be done with 6th and what didn't happen was for there to be a slim, easy to use, fast reading "player's book" for Hero and a larger more impressive "GM's book" with all the examples and in depth details. That way you're not handing the Encyclopedia Britannica to a new player and terrifying them when they want to play Champions. So that's really the way I'd lean with Hero. I'd dial back the rules a bit too. I know they're mostly there to make sense of different conflicts and questions but again: online is the best place for clarifications, so the rules aren't so intimidating. A look at what needs to be in the book and what can be assumed or put in something online to clarify the rules. If I was in charge, I'd put Comeliness back in, because if you want to ignore something you can always ignore it, but if its not in the game, then its presumed to be not "Rules as Written" and something that should be dumped. All those "social combat" rules in the Advanced Player's Guide make a lot more sense and work better with Comeliness in the place of an invented new stat. I'd also examine the APG stuff closely and consider some of those ideas for the official rules. Some of them are broken or extremely messed up, but some are clever and add a lot to the game, and would work in the rules. I'll have to think about this a bit more. Its unlikely another edition will ever come out, but its fun to think about.
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Post by Chris Goodwin on Jan 28, 2014 18:15:21 GMT
Champions Complete is the slimmed down 6E book.
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Post by CRTaylor on Jan 28, 2014 18:36:33 GMT
Right, and its a good step - plus its called Champions, which is a good step too. I was just pondering a 7th edition
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Post by Sketchpad on Jan 28, 2014 22:04:47 GMT
Streamlining the rules is the first thing I would do. I'd also begin working on separate worlds worlds for most genres, but I would also go a bit retro. So Champions would be superheroes, Danger International would return as the espionage game, Justice Inc. would be pulp, a new fantasy setting would be fantasy and the same with space. Each would contain the rules you'd want and on the cover, I would brand it as Hero System and compatible with Champions. That said, there would be a few other changes. • Endurance would be removed from the superhero game and become an optional stat. I never understood it in a superhero game. • Having a book like Champions Powers would be great for Champions, but I'd also make similar books for the other genres. So maybe something like Gadgets for DI, Grimoire for Fantasy, Mutations for PA, etc. This helps keep the genre book focused on the genre IMHO. • Streamline the vehicles and base rules a LOT. There's no need for that much stat for something that's usually auxiliary to the character. That said, Mechs would be a bit of an exception, as they tend to be more of a part of the character than most vehicles. • Each genre gets one core book with all the rules. There would also be a bare bones Hero System handbook aimed mainly at the player and those who want generic rules. • Take a lesson from other games. Less text book and more rule book in appearance and presentation. One of the reasons that Pathfinder gets my money is because the books look nice and are easy on the eyes (usually). • Detail out the world books attached to the genre books. One of the things I loved about old school Champions are the Enemies books, I'd be making a horde of these and bestiaries. • Adventure Paths. Paizo's made a mint off these. Why not make some for Hero Games? • Adventurer's Club was great. Let's bring that back with open submissions when possible. • Personally, I liked Hexes and the tactical combat. Yeah, it's not really gone, but I still liked it. • Listen to the fanbase because, well, they're buying the books. Piss them off and no one buys your books. • Pawns, Minis and other such things. I want my dang Champions Heroclix! • Take chances on books. You never know what might be a great seller. I'd release some books as PDF only or as part of a Kickstarter. If enough interest is there, publish them in book format. • Embrace the world of the tablets. E-Book and MOBI books are REALLY nice to have. Just ask Evil Hat with their Fate books. • Make worlds that players can play in, but that also emulate the genre. Champions needs to feel like your favorite comic, Fantasy Hero should be like a great novel or movie, etc. • Fiction. Lots of it. Books, comics, and anything in between.
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Post by Chris Goodwin on Jan 28, 2014 22:49:57 GMT
Here's how I'd do it: I'd take 5E, 5ER, 6E1, 6E2, and CC, along with all of the core rulebooks from 1st through 4th editions (FH, DI, etc.), and release all of their text as open content under the OGL (keeping all unique and superhero/supervillain characters as Product Identity). That would massively increase the number of players.
Edit to add: I'm not particularly certain the game needs a new edition, so I'd probably leave the rules tinkering at that.
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Hyper-Man
Double Digit Master
FREAK OUT!!!
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Post by Hyper-Man on Jan 29, 2014 4:00:05 GMT
Here's how I'd do it: I'd take 5E, 5ER, 6E1, 6E2, and CC, along with all of the core rulebooks from 1st through 4th editions (FH, DI, etc.), and release all of their text as open content under the OGL (keeping all unique and superhero/supervillain characters as Product Identity). That would massively increase the number of players. Edit to add: I'm not particularly certain the game needs a new edition, so I'd probably leave the rules tinkering at that. The big problem with that approach is how for the company to make money from that influx of new players. Sales of prepacked settings? I see lots of devils in the details. I'm not opposed to the idea but there has to be an economic strategy worked out in advance. And in reality a LOT of pirated Hero books (4e, 5e and 6e) is already available for download. I'm not sure how many new players with $ to spend this would attract. I wonder if the creators of FATE are actually turning a profit after their similar strategy.
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Post by Tasha on Jan 29, 2014 9:57:56 GMT
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Post by Tasha on Jan 29, 2014 10:12:37 GMT
I am not advocating a new edition.
If I were to do a 7th edition, I would first take a Long hard look at Characteristics. First with Figured Characteristics being paid for completely. I would want to make sure that all of the current stats really have a function. I think that there are a couple there that seem to not have a lot of functionality now. I would also want to really really see if the Primaries need to have the granularity they currently have. For most stats there's no functional difference between 10 and 12, 14, 16, 17 etc. Perhaps just buy the stats as their base roll. ie 10 int would become a +2, 15 of a primary would be a 3, 20 a 4 etc.
Would it be so bad if powers lost all of the multiplication and division in their cost. Using a system similar to Robot Warriors and Fuzion where Advantages just add straight DC's onto the cost of a power. Limiters would subtract from the cost. Basically taking away one of the biggest new player turn offs to the system.
Skill levels would go back to their 5th edition costs. Skill levels would work and cost the same as 5e. To make them more desirable than just buying up OCV and DCV.
Bring back the 2m Hex, but also include the Robot Warriors rules for changing the game scale.
Take a look at Computers and make sure that how you buy them is painfully clear. Vehicles seem to work well enough though discussing how to model thrust based movement for sci fi and other non ground moment would be great.
Include many many examples for the Various Complications.
Include a section on Heroic Action points and perhaps work out a system that works similar to the way FATE points work in that game.
Make sure simplifications actually make the game easier to play and easier to build characters.
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Post by CRTaylor on Jan 29, 2014 17:12:21 GMT
I do like the idea of hero points and having a system explained in the rules (especially with hero-based concepts like a hero point for every time a complication activates) would be good. I really, really like figured characteristics, but I do see the flexibility that dropping them brings to the game. Its just a pretty enormous change in the rules after 30+ years to suddenly drop in everyone's laps.
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Post by Tasha on Jan 29, 2014 22:47:47 GMT
I am sure that Steve would have made the change with 5e, but DOJ had limited funds then. They used what cash they had on hand to publish the manuscript that Hero/Cybergames had on hand for around a year. While Steve wrote that, he wrote what he was commissioned to write. Which was a new edition of 4e that had as many loopholes as possible closed. He only made minor changes in that edition many of which were very controversial (ie removal of Regeneration).
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 1, 2014 20:32:19 GMT
From what I understand, he always wanted to make some of these changes (no figured and no Comeliness, at least, perhaps more) but the owners rejected them as being too radical for an established and very popular game system.
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gojira
Double Digit Master
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Post by gojira on Feb 2, 2014 3:38:57 GMT
I really like figured characteristics too, but I have to admit that removing them makes things easier, especially templates, where you now just add up the stats (whereas before you had to account for the figured characteristics too, which made things messy in many cases).
But I actually wish Steve had gone further. Two points of PD and ED by default is just piddly and makes tracking stats more difficult. It means that your stun defense is always going to be 2 points more than your armor: why? And CV and ECV starting at 3. Same difference if everyone starts at 0: it's still 11- to hit a CV equal to yours, so why start at 3?
Yes everyone has to have some REC, END, STUN, etc. so those are fine, but things could be even more simple than they are now with just a bit more out-of-box thinking.
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 4, 2014 1:15:36 GMT
I think I'd bring back suppress and transfer as separate powers, especially with the bizarre construct that suppress is now. And I'd seriously consider a way of building Aid so that it could give people powers they don't normally have (an alternate to usable by others).
I can never remember who it was but he had a brilliant idea of using drain to give people disadvantages and other problems (basically you "drain" a target enough points to give them the disad, and it fades at the rate of a drain). Obviously any disad that weakened a character in combat would be treated as a 'defensive power' and halved in effect. But it gives rise to a lot of interesting curse-type effects like granting someone unluck or x3 END cost on their strength, that kind of thing. Very flexible power if built right.
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Post by Sketchpad on Feb 4, 2014 15:40:10 GMT
I would change Shapeshifting a bit. It just seems a bit wonky.
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gojira
Double Digit Master
in a rubber monster suit.
Posts: 85
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Post by gojira on Feb 5, 2014 19:10:40 GMT
I think I'd bring back suppress and transfer as separate powers, especially with the bizarre construct that suppress is now. And I'd seriously consider a way of building Aid so that it could give people powers they don't normally have (an alternate to usable by others). I can never remember who it was but he had a brilliant idea of using drain to give people disadvantages and other problems (basically you "drain" a target enough points to give them the disad, and it fades at the rate of a drain). I like the idea of separating powers so that they're easier to read and play with. Taking suppress and transfer for example, saying "this power is close to this power, just with different rules" is kind of why there's some unnecessary complexity in Hero. Those things could be made more simple if there were less dependencies on other parts of the rules. Following in the same vein, I think I'd be against redoing Aid so that it can give you new powers. The current idea of "just buy the power normally, and give it to someone else" is easy enough, I don't see why we should make Aid into a "do anything" power. Similarly for giving players Disads, overloading Drain so that it also gives disads seems like unnecessarily making drain far too complex. I think giving people disads (blindness, an "evil" personality, etc.) is so dependent on the genre I wouldn't want to build it into the rules. Better to use Transform as a "catch all" and just place it there, with each genre book getting a set of ad-hoc rules for the type of powers characters actually have. In a fantasy book, for example, you might want a spell for Blindness that works instantly, but allows some common "saves" besides Power Defense, and a magical spell will cure it back. In a modern book, a little spray bottle of acid could be used to blind someone (a common item, no character points), and it probably isn't curable if the initial application is severe enough. (Another problem with Drain: drains are supposed to get better quickly; it's a temporary weakness sort of thing. What do you do when a Drain is permanent? More rules that Drain doesn't need.) Also, I'm not advocating a new edition for Hero, not for at least another 10 years. I think some errata could be added though for parts of the rules that folks find clunky, and I think some rules could be added or clarified (or removed entirely) for certain genre books where it makes sense to do so.
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