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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 19, 2014 16:58:45 GMT
"Honestly, a GM can ban anything they want in their campaign because, well, it's their campaign."
Right, as I noted. However, GMs should, in fairness, be willing to work with players and not ban things simply because they don't like the construction or it makes them feel uncomfortable.
Often, I've found letting players have the power that makes me leery changes the flavor of the campaign and makes it more interesting. The character that gave everyone mental defense in my game basically negated any mentalist bad guys... but it made them really good at hunting down Psi when no one else could. And when the one master villain figured out how to build a device that took advantage of the "personal immunity" on the defense that the mentalist built... things got real interesting.
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Post by Thia Halmades on Feb 20, 2014 2:37:12 GMT
I remember the thing I was going to any about this, and, I'm able to write it at the same time!
There is a rule which says,min effect as Tasha noted, if there are two ways to do something, the player must purchase the most valid and, in most cases, most expensive version. To entomb, you need to buy it. I'll find the rule when I next have the text in front of me.
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Hyper-Man
Double Digit Master
FREAK OUT!!!
Posts: 25
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Post by Hyper-Man on Feb 20, 2014 2:53:12 GMT
Something like using a Flight or Teleport, UAA to send them 100 meters straight up then drop them. I might think it's cheesy but it's mechanically sound. I think that Flight UAA with some extra weight limit included is absolutely the correct way to model wind control abilities like Storm from the X-Men. The reason? NND is NOT a legal Advantage on Telekinesis (at least according to Steve Long. I've already asked before). Why is NND important? Why would the STR of a target of her wind attack make any difference on whether she can lift them into the air? The next best solution then is Flight UAA. Is it powerful vs. characters who can't fly? Damn straight. Is that alone a good reason to disallow it? No.
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 20, 2014 6:20:11 GMT
"There is a rule which says,min effect as Tasha noted, if there are two ways to do something, the player must purchase the most valid and, in most cases, most expensive version"
There are limits to that rule though. You can technically build an energy blast as a major transform, which could give you the same effect, and cost more. But that's a ridiculous way to buy it. There's another rule: use the power that fits the effect most clearly and obviously.
Just not liking a power construct doesn't make it wrong.
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Post by Thia Halmades on Feb 20, 2014 23:02:24 GMT
But there is a power that does what you want, is the point. And as the GM, I can say "you must purchase Entangle." Didn't say it was wrong, said there was a better, more accurate way to do it.
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 21, 2014 5:43:48 GMT
Except Entangle doesn't bury someone under the ground, which is the point of the power. And tunneling does exactly that. So it seems the appropriate and obvious power for the effect, to me at least.
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Hyper-Man
Double Digit Master
FREAK OUT!!!
Posts: 25
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Post by Hyper-Man on Feb 21, 2014 8:50:36 GMT
Which begs the follow up question:
What is the Body and Def of the 'earth' that has recently been dug through? *Common Sense says it has to be less than what it originally was if it was actually 'dug' through. It also suggests that it's NOT airtight so no secondary effects happen for free like 'suffocation' etc..
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 21, 2014 15:46:22 GMT
Yeah, the way I'd handle this as a GM is to make the "filled in" area be not terribly hard to dig out of, a 1-2 phase affair per meter, and prevent people from using it to bury targets more than a few meters. After all the idea is to bury someone, not sink them hundreds of feet into the ground. Judgment could make the difficulty to dig out based on the defense or makeup of the material. Sand would be easier to move through than tunneled rock.
I like to encourage people to use their powers creatively and interestingly, rather than the opposite. You can teleport people to your hand and do it to a sailor while holding your hand over the side of the boat? Clever, okay, lets do it.
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Post by Tasha on Feb 21, 2014 21:54:32 GMT
Except Entangle doesn't bury someone under the ground, which is the point of the power. And tunneling does exactly that. So it seems the appropriate and obvious power for the effect, to me at least. sure it does. It's part of the special effect of the power. Without it, I would rule that the people being trapped would have to move the lowest def/body of the material the PC was moving though. Or say that the backfill carried the target to the part of the tunnel that wasn't being filled in.
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Post by Chris Goodwin on Feb 21, 2014 22:37:44 GMT
Except Entangle doesn't bury someone under the ground, which is the point of the power. And tunneling does exactly that. So it seems the appropriate and obvious power for the effect, to me at least. sure it does. It's part of the special effect of the power. Without it, I would rule that the people being trapped would have to move the lowest def/body of the material the PC was moving though. Or say that the backfill carried the target to the part of the tunnel that wasn't being filled in. If I Entangle someone, they're still standing where they were. I might have brought up a large pseudopod of dirt under which they're buried, but they haven't moved.
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Post by Tasha on Feb 22, 2014 0:07:28 GMT
sure it does. It's part of the special effect of the power. Without it, I would rule that the people being trapped would have to move the lowest def/body of the material the PC was moving though. Or say that the backfill carried the target to the part of the tunnel that wasn't being filled in. If I Entangle someone, they're still standing where they were. I might have brought up a large pseudopod of dirt under which they're buried, but they haven't moved. But if I bought the Entangle as being linked to the Tunneling, then you can entomb anyone who is following in the tunnel.
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gojira
Double Digit Master
in a rubber monster suit.
Posts: 85
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Post by gojira on Feb 22, 2014 17:11:18 GMT
That's a great usage for Linked: enforcement of SFX or side effects. A few points spend on Tunneling UOO is a great way to get a specific side effect from that power.
For other powers, maybe Running, Flight or TP too, although I personally might require TK, extra Knockback or Indirect for those types of effects.
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Post by goldenage on Feb 24, 2014 8:01:15 GMT
See. This is where I get all rules-lawyer on people, because it's HERO, rather than because it's a bad idea. Agreed. You can make a tunnel. You can then (agreed!) collapse the tunnel, but if you want that to have an effect that the GM supports, you would need to buy the attack variation. "But wait!" comes the hue and cry, "It's a special effect! He's in there! He's buried!" "Agreed," says I in my wisdom, "However..." and six people who know me all wince reflexively because by the time The Lord Captain says "However," it means the puck is on his stick, he's splitting the defense and it's going to light the lamp. "However, you haven't purchased an attack. So yes, you can slow your target down, perhaps delay them, but "collapsing the tunnel" deals no damage, and doesn't return things to a perfect whatever. It just closes the hole; it is in and of itself a special effect behind tunneling, rather than a work around to deal damage, entrap, or entomb a target." Good idea though. I'd let you stunt it once. Then it would require XP to buy into a real power/slot/etc. Could he do a multiple move through; first upon his target (tackle; choosing to push his victim), then against the ground (Tunneling, closing it behind), thus leaving them both underground at the end of his full move?
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Post by Tasha on Feb 25, 2014 2:06:43 GMT
See. This is where I get all rules-lawyer on people, because it's HERO, rather than because it's a bad idea. Agreed. You can make a tunnel. You can then (agreed!) collapse the tunnel, but if you want that to have an effect that the GM supports, you would need to buy the attack variation. "But wait!" comes the hue and cry, "It's a special effect! He's in there! He's buried!" "Agreed," says I in my wisdom, "However..." and six people who know me all wince reflexively because by the time The Lord Captain says "However," it means the puck is on his stick, he's splitting the defense and it's going to light the lamp. "However, you haven't purchased an attack. So yes, you can slow your target down, perhaps delay them, but "collapsing the tunnel" deals no damage, and doesn't return things to a perfect whatever. It just closes the hole; it is in and of itself a special effect behind tunneling, rather than a work around to deal damage, entrap, or entomb a target." Good idea though. I'd let you stunt it once. Then it would require XP to buy into a real power/slot/ etc. Could he do a multiple move through; first upon his target (tackle; choosing to push his victim), then against the ground (Tunneling, closing it behind), thus leaving them both underground at the end of his full move? -2 OCV per target, 1/2 DCV plus the Move Through penalties
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kravenkor
Double Digit Master
"We're making a better world; all of them. Better worlds."
Posts: 92
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Post by kravenkor on Feb 26, 2014 22:28:15 GMT
"Honestly, a GM can ban anything they want in their campaign because, well, it's their campaign." Right, as I noted. However, GMs should, in fairness, be willing to work with players and not ban things simply because they don't like the construction or it makes them feel uncomfortable. Often, I've found letting players have the power that makes me leery changes the flavor of the campaign and makes it more interesting. The character that gave everyone mental defense in my game basically negated any mentalist bad guys... but it made them really good at hunting down Psi when no one else could. And when the one master villain figured out how to build a device that took advantage of the "personal immunity" on the defense that the mentalist built... things got real interesting. Could not agree more. I've had online campaigns where GM's were just outright "No!" on something, and that is my queue to leave, generally. I've had players join up to my campaign who, when advised on how I'd prefer a change and why, got all up in arms about me gimping their character, as well, so it is a two-way street for sure
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