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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 7, 2014 21:12:48 GMT
One of my favorite things to do in the Hero system is using powers in unusual or interesting ways. My favorite most recent one is using Clairvoyance (precognition) as an oracle: the spell gives a yes or no answer (by the GM) to a single question based on what the character could find out looking with clairvoyance and precognition. Is this the right passage to go? Will this bridge hold our weight?
But another favorite I used to build a spell was Tunneling, usable as an attack, closing the hole behind him. It works great for entombing targets: bury them with tunneling a good 6m, then close the hole...
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Post by Thia Halmades on Feb 14, 2014 1:20:27 GMT
See.
This is where I get all rules-lawyer on people, because it's HERO, rather than because it's a bad idea. Agreed. You can make a tunnel. You can then (agreed!) collapse the tunnel, but if you want that to have an effect that the GM supports, you would need to buy the attack variation.
"But wait!" comes the hue and cry, "It's a special effect! He's in there! He's buried!"
"Agreed," says I in my wisdom, "However..." and six people who know me all wince reflexively because by the time The Lord Captain says "However," it means the puck is on his stick, he's splitting the defense and it's going to light the lamp. "However, you haven't purchased an attack. So yes, you can slow your target down, perhaps delay them, but "collapsing the tunnel" deals no damage, and doesn't return things to a perfect whatever. It just closes the hole; it is in and of itself a special effect behind tunneling, rather than a work around to deal damage, entrap, or entomb a target."
Good idea though. I'd let you stunt it once. Then it would require XP to buy into a real power/slot/etc.
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 14, 2014 4:55:38 GMT
Well this is bought as an attack (usable against others, as an attack) rather than just tunneling used as a trick. And ranged, of course.
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Post by Tasha on Feb 14, 2014 9:59:20 GMT
The entombing part should be bought as an entangle, linked to the Tunneling. I would also allow it once with a decent power skill roll, but to use as a regular ability would need to be purchased as a power. This is one of those special effects that suggests other powers that would work from that basis.
Good Call Thia!
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Post by Thia Halmades on Feb 14, 2014 15:33:27 GMT
I have my moments. This is an Entangle, even bought with the limitation, "requires tunnel, (-1)," and that would get you where you're going.
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 16, 2014 4:57:16 GMT
I disagree (obviously) since you can buy movement usable as an attack and this would do exactly what the concept says: put them underground and covered up. An engtangle could too, but its not needed.
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Post by Chris Goodwin on Feb 16, 2014 5:33:57 GMT
Something like using a Flight or Teleport, UAA to send them 100 meters straight up then drop them. I might think it's cheesy but it's mechanically sound.
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Post by Tasha on Feb 16, 2014 8:44:55 GMT
I disagree (obviously) since you can buy movement usable as an attack and this would do exactly what the concept says: put them underground and covered up. An engtangle could too, but its not needed. It's cheeze, and in a choice between a cheeze build and one that uses established powers. I would choose the established power. |
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gojira
Double Digit Master
in a rubber monster suit.
Posts: 85 
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Post by gojira on Feb 16, 2014 17:07:46 GMT
Yes, obviously cheese, and it's the reason why Usable On Other has a stop sign next to it. Any use of a stop sign advantage or power means the GM can step in and say "no," and in the two cases presented here (Flight and Tunneling) the GM definitely should say "no."
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Post by Tasha on Feb 16, 2014 21:41:09 GMT
Yes, obviously cheese, and it's the reason why Usable On Other has a stop sign next to it. Any use of a stop sign advantage or power means the GM can step in and say "no," and in the two cases presented here (Flight and Tunneling) the GM definitely should say "no." Because in both of those cases there is an existing power that does the same thing and has better mechanics. (Telekinesis, and Entangle) The Teleport usable vs others is still cheezy, but there isn't really a better way to do it. |
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gojira
Double Digit Master
in a rubber monster suit.
Posts: 85
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Post by gojira on Feb 16, 2014 22:51:29 GMT
Without some hefty limitations, Teleport UOO is cheese pretty much no matter how you slice it.
Requiring a voluntary target would be big step to reducing cheese. So would extra time and maybe some 1/2 DCV. But Nightcrawler's powers are pretty cheesy when you get right down to it. They're pretty much held in check solely by writer fiat. Why doesn't Kurt just teleport *everybody* up 1,000 feet and drop them? That would solve like 80% of the X-Men's problems.
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Post by Thia Halmades on Feb 16, 2014 22:54:56 GMT
Because Kurt has CVK, like most heroes.  |
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 17, 2014 0:52:03 GMT
Yeah because he's not a mass murderer, would be my guess.
I think there has to be a line drawn between "I don't like that power build" and "You can't therefore use it even though its perfectly legal and legitimate according to the rules." The stop signs and warnings in the book are there for good reason; be careful with these constructs, but they aren't banned.
Obviously a GM is free to do what they wish with a game, but at the same time some restraint should be shown by the GM too.
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gojira
Double Digit Master
in a rubber monster suit.
Posts: 85
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Post by gojira on Feb 17, 2014 23:43:44 GMT
Because Kurt has CVK, like most heroes. Pfft. You heroes and your 'ethics.' I'll have to double check the wording, but I'm pretty sure the rules say that the GM certainly can ban uses of certain powers and advantages, particularly those with stop sign icons. Those powers and builds aren't banned in the sense that they're never used in every genre and game, but they're certainly inappropriate for many. I'd without a doubt put some limitations on a Teleporter with UOO. Probably strict weight limits, no blind teleport, extra time as mentioned above, and CVK is an excellent idea. OTOH, if a player don't want all those or seems the type to try to "work the rules," I'll just say "no" and let them pick something acceptable that they actually want to play. |
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Post by Sketchpad on Feb 19, 2014 16:33:04 GMT
Honestly, a GM can ban anything they want in their campaign because, well, it's their campaign. I've had a few instances where I looked at a build and said "Uh, no." It doesn't matter what the book may say, if something is unbalancing to your particular game, then just don't allow it. Period. As for Teleport UOO as an attack, I've allowed it a few times, but I make sure that the player won't abuse the power and understands how the power works. More often than not, I offer alternatives as well, such as various forms of attack (such as Nightcrawler's T-Port attack that weakens/sickens targets) or allowing them to do tricks with a power roll.
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