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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 1, 2014 20:16:42 GMT
This is a house rule for any hero system game I've worked up over the years that you might find useful:
A variant of ACV is No Normal Evasion (NNE). NNE is an equivalent of No Normal Defense for Attack vs Alternate Defense.
A power with this advantage requires no to hit roll; it always successfully hits the target. Powers bought with NNE do no Body damage by default (but can be bought to do Body damage with that advantage). Each power purchased with NNE must have a way that the victims can avoid being hit, with GM approval (even if it is bought with the saving throw option, below).
No Normal Evasion still suffers from the normal restrictions of the power it is bought for: if it is bought on a mental power, then it still requires Line of Sight; if it does stun damage, it will have no effect on a target that takes no stun; if it is bought on a normal energy blast, it has its normal range and will not strike a target that is completely concealed behind a barrier and so on.
NNE is not Indirect, nor does it ignore barriers or line of sight. Normal defenses still apply, and when the character is hit, hit locations are determined (if any) apply as usual. Powers with this advantage are considered special attacks - thus Autofire and Reduced END are increased in cost. NNE can be a very dangerous power if bought with certain advantages, such as NND and Autofire. Any power bought with NNE requires a reasonable method of avoiding the attack (such as diving for cover, having a luck token like a four-leafed clover, or crouching/being under the height of one meter, etc).
In campaigns with hit locations, powers with the No Normal Evasion advantage still require the player to roll the location hit. The character can attempt to hit a specific location as normal with a to hit roll, but if he misses, the location is rolled up randomly: the attack will not miss, it simply may miss the intended location
The GM should consider this a companion Advantage to Attack vs Alternate Defense and must approve any use of NNE, as it is potentially unbalancing.
NNE is a +1 advantage
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 1, 2014 20:18:32 GMT
Another variant for ACV is “Touch.” ACV Touch attacks allow the character’s power to take effect with only the slightest contact, instead of requiring a solid, damaging blow. ACV Touch attacks the target at half DCV, to represent the fact that it is much easier to simply make contact with a target without needing to harm it.
ACV Touch is available only for melee attacks, it cannot be purchased for range. Powers with this advantage are considered special attacks - thus Autofire and Reduced END are increased in cost.
ACV Touch is a +1/2 advantage
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 1, 2014 20:25:58 GMT
Players may build powers with an alternate form of Attack vs Alternate Defense which, instead of altering the defense which protects against an attack causes the attack to be reduced or eliminated by a skill or characteristic roll.
-If this roll is common one that all characters have at a normal level (such as a characteristic roll or perception roll), then the advantage is +1/2.
-If the roll is an unusual one or one that characters normally only have as a familiarity (such as stealth or a magic skill roll), then the advantage is is +3/4.
-If the roll only halves the effect of the power rather than ignoring it, the advantage is +1/2 greater.
-If the roll is modified by -1/10 active points of the spell the advantage is +1/4 greater.
EXAMPLE: Merlin builds Merlin’s Bolt with Saving Throw: Dexterity roll to half damage. This is a +1 advantage (+1/2 for common roll, +1/2 for half rather than no damage with success). If he had built it to require a Survival Skill Roll it would cost +1 1/4. If the Survival Skill roll is adjusted by a penalty of -1 per 10 active points in Merlin’s Bolt, it would be a +1 1/2 advantage.
This advantage is commonly called “Saving Throw," and adds a mechanic similar to the one used in D20 games.
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Post by Thia Halmades on Feb 14, 2014 15:46:46 GMT
Hmm. Those are interesting and I see some merit there. Well thought out. I like it. I would suggest the following:
NNE (No Normal Evasion) is already "in system" with AOE - 1 Hex - Accurate; I see where you're going, but one of the bedrock rules of HERO is that everything requires a roll, and just about anything with sufficient warning can be dodged/defended against. When I want to ensure that I've tagged someone, I default to this, where I "hit the hex" and they suffer the effect. The swiftest/best way out of it, short of applicable DEF, is "DFC," or good old Dive For Cover.
To your second, touch attacks, that's the same rule found in d20; most Mage/Wizard/Sorc touch attacks halve the target's AC (because Wizard builds don't get a lot of +OCV in them), and I use the same mechanic if all the effect requires is "contact," then it's AOE, 1 Hex, Accurate, No Range. I think I built Shocking Grasp using that core mechanic, and there are some powers in Persona that I think are more or less touch attacks (although they are few & far between, but that's the setting).
The last one is a personal favorite, the mighty d20 Saving Throw. You've arrived at the same conclusion I have, except you went backwards. A Saving Throw is a limitation on a Power, not an Advantage. If you accept that the power would work as designed out of the gate, and, that it would achieve full effect unencumbered, then, by giving the target a Saving Throw you are limiting the power so that the target has an opportunity to avoid it. This is a Limitation, by design. The baseline I use is:
Saving Throw (-1/2, See Text); a Saving Throw is made by the target against the AP of the attack; higher level and more expensive powers are harder to avoid than lower level ones. The common saving throws are DEX, EGO and CON (although others can be included as the system requires). Purchasing additional stats "Only to Make Saving Throws" is a -1 limitation (ie, +10 EGO, Only for Saving Throws, -1, costs 5). By the same measure, some GMs may allow the caster (or NPC casters) to purchase "Skilled Caster, increase the Saving Throw Target of a given spell by X, where X is the stat in question, Only to Increase Saving Throw Difficulty, -1/2, as the attack is more expensive than the Defense, by nature of rule).
Something to consider.
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 16, 2014 4:56:10 GMT
" I see where you're going, but one of the bedrock rules of HERO is that everything requires a roll, and just about anything with sufficient warning can be dodged/defended against."
Except NND. Which this is based on. Its really a pretty obvious addition to the system if you step back and look at it objectively, I think. It is the hit version of NND, and it fills the gap a lot better than the 1 hex accurate thing, which is just... odd. It works, but its non intuitive, it doesn't feel right.
I see saving throw as a limitation only if it is in addition to normal defenses. If it replaces defenses, its an advantage as I see it.
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Post by rjcurrie on Mar 29, 2014 5:57:50 GMT
I've always felt that Saving Throws should be a variant of NND, that is, instead of the normal defense, you have to make a roll.
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Post by CRTaylor on Mar 29, 2014 15:35:03 GMT
Yeah it could go either way, really. Maybe it could be in both advantages, a variant with the same cost in both ACV and AVAD.
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Post by Tasha on Mar 31, 2014 2:33:53 GMT
I've always felt that Saving Throws should be a variant of NND, that is, instead of the normal defense, you have to make a roll. I THINK that's what non-selective AOE's are supposed to be. Just instead of passively making a roll, the attacker has to hit all of the AOE's target's DCV. |
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Post by rjcurrie on Mar 31, 2014 14:26:50 GMT
I've always felt that Saving Throws should be a variant of NND, that is, instead of the normal defense, you have to make a roll. I THINK that's what non-selective AOE's are supposed to be. Just instead of passively making a roll, the attacker has to hit all of the AOE's target's DCV. Good point. I think more of something like a CON Roll or EGO Roll to resist certain special effects. |
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kravenkor
Double Digit Master
"We're making a better world; all of them. Better worlds."
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Post by kravenkor on Mar 31, 2014 16:38:31 GMT
I THINK that's what non-selective AOE's are supposed to be. Just instead of passively making a roll, the attacker has to hit all of the AOE's target's DCV. Good point. I think more of something like a CON Roll or EGO Roll to resist certain special effects. I use that as a "standard" AVAD, with the defense being "A successful CHAR Roll @ -1 per 10 AP." It is a house rule, but I think it is in keeping with the intent of AVAD. And I call the defense "X to Uncommon" - as just about anybody can make the roll, but only someone with a high CHAR is going to succeed generally. I also detest the "never misses" aspects of things like Magic Missile in D20 and am fine with using AOE 1-Hex Accurate for that. Though I think this is a very detailed write-up, I would never allow a "no attack roll" power in any of my own games. |
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