Post by Duke on Jun 25, 2022 4:07:54 GMT
There are a lot of reasons I detest the phrase "rage quit." Some of them revolve around the idea of "aw... you got mad and can't handle it....!"
That's not the case here. Sure, on the outside, a "rage quit" and a "frustration raised my blood pressure to even more dangerous levels, and this situation will never not be frustrating, so it's best just to avoid it," but that's the case.
I don't know-- in a year or two-- maybe more; maybe even less-- I might poke my head back in at the official board. But for the foreseeable future, I am _done_ over there.
I avoided the political thread-- _most_ of the "non-gaming" threads, actually, but I did enjoy perusing and possibly even helping out on the general system threads and even a couple of the genre threads if I was comfortable with them or had relevant data or experience with the genre at hand.
However, it has become _impossible_ to discuss the rules over there because the fandom has decided that _everything_ is a goddamned rule. >:[ No; really! How bad is it? I had to abandon a discussion a few weeks ago with the actual comment "just because it is not a written rule doesn't mean that it is not a rule" continued with a suggestion to check in with the current custodian of the IP and author of the edition in question, just to make sure that "if there isn't a rule that says X, is X a rule anyway?"
Yes; this goes to the core of the HERO System problem overall-- some people are better at parsing than are others; some people are more or less literal than others; some people-- well, the fact is that different people interpret things differently, and frankly, that's kind of _bad_ for something like the "divorce SFX from mechanics" premise of the Champions engine. Now to his credit-- because I don't want anyone thinking that I am trying to insult someone for being less interpretive or instinctive than other people might be-- the person stated up front that he was not particularly prone to tiered interpretation and not comfortable assuming that a lack of a rule should be interpreted as there being no actual rule, so I am-- and I reiterate the rage quit commentary with which I opened-- not mad at him; I am not _mad_ at anyone. I was frustrated beyond belief, because it's really hard to have a rules discussion if people cannot agree on what the rules are, or accept that the rules as printed are the rules-- as printed.
I say that this is _THE_ fundamental problem with Champions (we're not on the official board, so I don't have to pretend that I call it the HERO System in private conversation. Nyeah!) because it has led to more rules bloat than anything else, period. Yes; lots of other things have, but nothing so much as poor interpretation. We had "only in HERO ID," but folks had a hard time making the leap to "only in appropriate ID / Form," so we ended up with multiform (or the "400 points is a lot, sure, but I'd like 800 points, but I only want to pay 480 points for them" power) and eventually the single most fucked-up set of rules ever devised for "shape shift." Never mind that we have existing artifacts from the original creators and players demonstrating "only in appropriate form" as _the_ key to shape shifting.
Then we got "levels" of Transformation because "I want to kill it into something more valuable than a corpse." Well, realistically, _anything_ you turn it into is more valuable than a corpse! If it wasn't, then you'd shut the fuck up, take your corpse, and be absolutely delighted with it, wouldn't you?! So now for the same price as killing it fucking _dead_, you can make it a tiny bit prettier instead.
Whoody-fuckin'-RAH!
Too many people couldn't figure out that light is part of the environment (that's why when you go inside, there _isn't any_, and we had to invent some artificial ones), so now-- oh, God damn! We all know the atrocity that is Images: only to make light, which-- much like "Transformation Attack: only for Instant Change," only had to break a couple of its own rules to be beaten into the cubbyhole we think it should be in.
Oh-ho! How about we instead create a new rule-- "Standard Effects," that we can use as a patch to break internal rules by ruling that "this is the standard effect." Interestingly enough, that's only possible with creative interpretation of the _name_ of the power modifier, as originally it meant "all dice roll 3.5." Now it means "this is exactly what happens with this power." So... have we _changed_ that rule, or do we just have to violate (only) one rule of Standard Effects to use it this way?
Either way, rules are rules, right?> Even if they fucking are NOT rules, they are rules because someone somewhere probably feels like they _should_ be rules, or because someone somewhere mistook them for rules, which, let's be honest here, is just about as legitimate as it is possible for a rule to get! That's even better than a book with "this is an official rule" written inside! Fucking _awesome_!
Anyway, the whole "sure, it doesn't say that this is a rule, but it doesn't say that it _isn't_ a rule, either, so we'd better check" thing was frustrating beyond measure. Why? For the most part, those are strikingly intelligent people on that board. It was maddening that someone didn't immediately understand why "you can't prove a negative," or at least grasp the impossibility of writing a book or an encyclopedia!-- in terms of listing all the things that are _not rules_. How do you continue that conversation? You _can't_. So frustration. Bad frustration. So bad that I bailed to cool off for a few weeks. I had to! I've had one heart attack (a pretty bad one, it turns out), and an impossible conversation just isn't worth another one, period.
Then-- I've been back a week? Maybe?-- I hit today's entry of "I know it says it's not a rule, but since it's in print, it's a rule anyway." Well, that part that says "this is not a rule" is in print to, but fuck it! It's a popular house rule (I don't use it myself, as I have never seen
the point), so why not? Why not call it a rule?
Well, there are people who state plainly that they don't track Endurance. Lots of people, actually, and even more than that recommend teaching the game by taking certain shortcuts of recording-light customizations the first few games with a new player, the most commonly-mentioned of which is not tracking Endurance.
So fuck it-- that's a popular house rule, too! That means it's a rule, right?
Well, I never liked that there are no tiny bonuses for limitations that that are purely concept-related, so I added 1/8 advantages and limitations. It works well, and I've used it since 2e was the only e, so fuck it! It's a rule now, and everyone is just going to have to accept it and act like it is right there in print.
And hey-- there are _two_ rules for to-hit rolls! Sure, _one_ says it's "optional," but that's even more strongly-suggestive than "this is not a rule," so by GOD, it, too, is a rule! Roll low is the rule; roll high is _also_ the rule. So roll the fucking dice. If you hit rolling low, then you hit. If you miss rolling low, check and see if it hit for a high-roll. If it did, then you hit! Sweet fucking Jesus! This _doubles_ the odds of hitting your opponent! No _wonder_ there are two rules of equal importance and validity! They are both in the book; they are both called rules, so damn it, you have to use them both, period.
In fact, every single optional rule says that they are rules, which means they can't possibly be optional! All of them must be used in all instances where they apply.
I give up. That place has become nothing more than circular reasoning and impossible discussions-- sure, there is plenty of "talking about," but discussion can't happen. If it does, someone is going to back it up into infinite regression until they can find a tangent to seize upon and somehow declare that this makes their point.
Fuck that place.
Let it wipe it's ass with a handful of rusty screws.
That's not the case here. Sure, on the outside, a "rage quit" and a "frustration raised my blood pressure to even more dangerous levels, and this situation will never not be frustrating, so it's best just to avoid it," but that's the case.
I don't know-- in a year or two-- maybe more; maybe even less-- I might poke my head back in at the official board. But for the foreseeable future, I am _done_ over there.
I avoided the political thread-- _most_ of the "non-gaming" threads, actually, but I did enjoy perusing and possibly even helping out on the general system threads and even a couple of the genre threads if I was comfortable with them or had relevant data or experience with the genre at hand.
However, it has become _impossible_ to discuss the rules over there because the fandom has decided that _everything_ is a goddamned rule. >:[ No; really! How bad is it? I had to abandon a discussion a few weeks ago with the actual comment "just because it is not a written rule doesn't mean that it is not a rule" continued with a suggestion to check in with the current custodian of the IP and author of the edition in question, just to make sure that "if there isn't a rule that says X, is X a rule anyway?"
Yes; this goes to the core of the HERO System problem overall-- some people are better at parsing than are others; some people are more or less literal than others; some people-- well, the fact is that different people interpret things differently, and frankly, that's kind of _bad_ for something like the "divorce SFX from mechanics" premise of the Champions engine. Now to his credit-- because I don't want anyone thinking that I am trying to insult someone for being less interpretive or instinctive than other people might be-- the person stated up front that he was not particularly prone to tiered interpretation and not comfortable assuming that a lack of a rule should be interpreted as there being no actual rule, so I am-- and I reiterate the rage quit commentary with which I opened-- not mad at him; I am not _mad_ at anyone. I was frustrated beyond belief, because it's really hard to have a rules discussion if people cannot agree on what the rules are, or accept that the rules as printed are the rules-- as printed.
I say that this is _THE_ fundamental problem with Champions (we're not on the official board, so I don't have to pretend that I call it the HERO System in private conversation. Nyeah!) because it has led to more rules bloat than anything else, period. Yes; lots of other things have, but nothing so much as poor interpretation. We had "only in HERO ID," but folks had a hard time making the leap to "only in appropriate ID / Form," so we ended up with multiform (or the "400 points is a lot, sure, but I'd like 800 points, but I only want to pay 480 points for them" power) and eventually the single most fucked-up set of rules ever devised for "shape shift." Never mind that we have existing artifacts from the original creators and players demonstrating "only in appropriate form" as _the_ key to shape shifting.
Then we got "levels" of Transformation because "I want to kill it into something more valuable than a corpse." Well, realistically, _anything_ you turn it into is more valuable than a corpse! If it wasn't, then you'd shut the fuck up, take your corpse, and be absolutely delighted with it, wouldn't you?! So now for the same price as killing it fucking _dead_, you can make it a tiny bit prettier instead.
Whoody-fuckin'-RAH!
Too many people couldn't figure out that light is part of the environment (that's why when you go inside, there _isn't any_, and we had to invent some artificial ones), so now-- oh, God damn! We all know the atrocity that is Images: only to make light, which-- much like "Transformation Attack: only for Instant Change," only had to break a couple of its own rules to be beaten into the cubbyhole we think it should be in.
Oh-ho! How about we instead create a new rule-- "Standard Effects," that we can use as a patch to break internal rules by ruling that "this is the standard effect." Interestingly enough, that's only possible with creative interpretation of the _name_ of the power modifier, as originally it meant "all dice roll 3.5." Now it means "this is exactly what happens with this power." So... have we _changed_ that rule, or do we just have to violate (only) one rule of Standard Effects to use it this way?
Either way, rules are rules, right?> Even if they fucking are NOT rules, they are rules because someone somewhere probably feels like they _should_ be rules, or because someone somewhere mistook them for rules, which, let's be honest here, is just about as legitimate as it is possible for a rule to get! That's even better than a book with "this is an official rule" written inside! Fucking _awesome_!
Anyway, the whole "sure, it doesn't say that this is a rule, but it doesn't say that it _isn't_ a rule, either, so we'd better check" thing was frustrating beyond measure. Why? For the most part, those are strikingly intelligent people on that board. It was maddening that someone didn't immediately understand why "you can't prove a negative," or at least grasp the impossibility of writing a book or an encyclopedia!-- in terms of listing all the things that are _not rules_. How do you continue that conversation? You _can't_. So frustration. Bad frustration. So bad that I bailed to cool off for a few weeks. I had to! I've had one heart attack (a pretty bad one, it turns out), and an impossible conversation just isn't worth another one, period.
Then-- I've been back a week? Maybe?-- I hit today's entry of "I know it says it's not a rule, but since it's in print, it's a rule anyway." Well, that part that says "this is not a rule" is in print to, but fuck it! It's a popular house rule (I don't use it myself, as I have never seen
the point), so why not? Why not call it a rule?
Well, there are people who state plainly that they don't track Endurance. Lots of people, actually, and even more than that recommend teaching the game by taking certain shortcuts of recording-light customizations the first few games with a new player, the most commonly-mentioned of which is not tracking Endurance.
So fuck it-- that's a popular house rule, too! That means it's a rule, right?
Well, I never liked that there are no tiny bonuses for limitations that that are purely concept-related, so I added 1/8 advantages and limitations. It works well, and I've used it since 2e was the only e, so fuck it! It's a rule now, and everyone is just going to have to accept it and act like it is right there in print.
And hey-- there are _two_ rules for to-hit rolls! Sure, _one_ says it's "optional," but that's even more strongly-suggestive than "this is not a rule," so by GOD, it, too, is a rule! Roll low is the rule; roll high is _also_ the rule. So roll the fucking dice. If you hit rolling low, then you hit. If you miss rolling low, check and see if it hit for a high-roll. If it did, then you hit! Sweet fucking Jesus! This _doubles_ the odds of hitting your opponent! No _wonder_ there are two rules of equal importance and validity! They are both in the book; they are both called rules, so damn it, you have to use them both, period.
In fact, every single optional rule says that they are rules, which means they can't possibly be optional! All of them must be used in all instances where they apply.
I give up. That place has become nothing more than circular reasoning and impossible discussions-- sure, there is plenty of "talking about," but discussion can't happen. If it does, someone is going to back it up into infinite regression until they can find a tangent to seize upon and somehow declare that this makes their point.
Fuck that place.
Let it wipe it's ass with a handful of rusty screws.