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Post by CRTaylor on Apr 28, 2014 18:44:58 GMT
The Damage Over Time advantage is a very useful tool, particularly for building poisons and diseases. While technically you could, with a block of text, come up with a way of representing the same thing in previous editions of Hero, the DOT advantage in 6th makes this much easier and streamlined. Further, it simulates something very common in other game contexts, particularly computer "RPGs" and MMOGs. I've even used it to create "heal over time" effects (using the 'defenses only apply once' modifier to act as the 'decreased reuse duration' effect for Healing).
However, there are some rarer concepts and ideas that could be built by extending this x over time concept to other ideas.
For example, a power that does greater damage the longer it travels (Damage Over Distance) or one that does more damage every phase (Increasing DOT).
So you could build a blast that builds in kinetic energy or heat, and the more distant the target, the more damage it deals. This would act somewhat like a reversed "reduced by range" limitation.
Or a blast that hits each phase but starts weak and increases in potency each phase. I considered using DOT and adding in "cumulative" on the damage but it doesn't work with normal damage attacks, and you'd have to kind of bend the rules.
Cumulative does seem like it would work well to me though, giving an absolute maximum and a system for increasing regularly.
Any thoughts on how to build these kind of concepts?
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kravenkor
Double Digit Master
"We're making a better world; all of them. Better worlds."
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Post by kravenkor on May 1, 2014 15:12:49 GMT
All I know is I have yet to build a DoT that was not so stupid expensive that I wasn't better off using drain or something. A 4d6 Blast with DoT is 55 AP. Before adding "Defenses only apply once" or any other modifiers that might make it worthwhile. The only time I've used it to any actual good - actually been able to do damage with it - is building like 1-Pip RKA AVAD DOES BODY DoT and even then it ends up stupid expensive. I'd be interested in seeing functional powers built with DoT, to be honest, as I can't seem to figure out how to make it viable. A quick and dirty illustration of the problem, in my eyes: - Blast 4d6, Damage Over Time, Lock out (cannot be applied multiple times) (4 damage increments, damage occurs every Turn, +1 3/4) (55 Active Points)
This power would do almost nothing to nothing against someone with 12 PD or so. Change to an RKA and it is 1d6+1 so 6 rPD / 12 PD stops it cold in most cases.
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Post by CRTaylor on May 1, 2014 18:11:58 GMT
The best way to approach DOT is with small amounts that pile up; look at the total effect, not the base effect. That 4d6 blast is 16d6 in the end the way you have it built; that's enormous. Turn it into a 2d6 blast, defenses only apply once, and watch what happens. You have to think of it less as an attack that keeps going off like constant and more of an attack that slowly builds.
The repeated attack works fine with little bitty effects, 5-10 base points at most, and let it rot the target away slowly.
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kravenkor
Double Digit Master
"We're making a better world; all of them. Better worlds."
Posts: 92
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Post by kravenkor on May 1, 2014 18:35:12 GMT
The best way to approach DOT is with small amounts that pile up; look at the total effect, not the base effect. That 4d6 blast is 16d6 in the end the way you have it built; that's enormous. Turn it into a 2d6 blast, defenses only apply once, and watch what happens. You have to think of it less as an attack that keeps going off like constant and more of an attack that slowly builds. The repeated attack works fine with little bitty effects, 5-10 base points at most, and let it rot the target away slowly. Which is again only possible if you also use every dirty trick to make that small effect not bounce off entirely. AVAD or the like. My sample build there is 4d6 every turn, vs. the target's defenses each time. It isn't 16d6 that slowly adds up; it is 4d6 vs. DEF, then another 4d6 vs. DEF, etc. If the target has 10-12 PD, they'll take what, maybe 3 to 5 STUN per TURN, on average? IE. completely useless in a 50-60 AP campaign.
Unless I am completely misunderstanding the mechanics, which is possible.
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kravenkor
Double Digit Master
"We're making a better world; all of them. Better worlds."
Posts: 92
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Post by kravenkor on May 1, 2014 18:36:38 GMT
Add "Defenses only apply once" and it goes to 70 AP. oO
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kravenkor
Double Digit Master
"We're making a better world; all of them. Better worlds."
Posts: 92
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Post by kravenkor on May 1, 2014 18:40:20 GMT
And, again, once you add some dirty tricks it becomes a bit nastier, naturally: - Killing Attack - Ranged 1/2d6, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (ED -> Life Support Self-Contained Breathing; All Or Nothing; +1/2), Does BODY (+1), Damage Over Time, Target's defenses only apply once, Lock out (cannot be applied multiple times) (4 damage increments, damage occurs every Turn, +2 1/2) (50 Active Points)
I just wish it was useful without the dirty tricks. I think just making an attack Constant is a better option in that situation - you can do 8d6 Constant for the same AP as doing this 3d6 / 1/2d6k DoT option. Obviously there are other considerations; DoT you only pay END once, and can do other actions while it ticks away, etc.
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Post by Tasha on May 1, 2014 20:03:14 GMT
I think that I like DOT to simulate Disease and Poison effects.
ie Virulant Disease: Drain BODY 0 1/2d6, Sticky (+1/2) (7 Active Points); Damage Over Time, Target's defenses only apply once, Lock out (cannot be applied multiple times) (4 damage increments, damage occurs every 6 Hours; -2 1/2) (2 Real pts)(7 Active Points)
PS I don't agree that Diseases and poisons should be NND. Power Defense should be what makes one Disease and poison Resistant, not Life support. (I hate all of nothing effects when we don't have to use them)
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kravenkor
Double Digit Master
"We're making a better world; all of them. Better worlds."
Posts: 92
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Post by kravenkor on May 1, 2014 20:27:30 GMT
I think that I like DOT to simulate Disease and Poison effects. ie Virulant Disease: Drain BODY 0 1/2d6, Sticky (+1/2) (7 Active Points); Damage Over Time, Target's defenses only apply once, Lock out (cannot be applied multiple times) (4 damage increments, damage occurs every 6 Hours; -2 1/2) (2 Real pts)(7 Active Points) PS I don't agree that Diseases and poisons should be NND. Power Defense should be what makes one Disease and poison Resistant, not Life support. (I hate all of nothing effects when we don't have to use them) Depends on your take on Power Defense. I use Power Defense in Champions pretty much as-is and build diseases and the like accordingly; anything that isn't defended against by PD or ED or Mental Defense is vs. Power Defense; with very few exceptions. In Fantasy HERO... I see it a bit different, for my campaign at least. I see Power Defense as "Magic Resistance" and set most Diseases or Poisons to work vs. Life Support, while things like "Finger of Death" or "Bolt of Arcane Force" that bypasses normal armor work vs. Power Defense. No wrong way to do it; just depends on the level of dramatic reality you are aiming for.
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kravenkor
Double Digit Master
"We're making a better world; all of them. Better worlds."
Posts: 92
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Post by kravenkor on May 1, 2014 20:28:37 GMT
And Drain cannot kill; hence me usually adding a Constant, Uncontrolled, AVAD RKA (or RKA AVAD DoT) to diseases or poisons meant to be deadly.
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Post by CRTaylor on May 1, 2014 21:13:46 GMT
Which is again only possible if you also use every dirty trick to make that small effect not bounce off entirely. AVAD or the like. Not at all. Simply take the "defenses only apply once" adder. See, each phase the 4d6 goes off in your example, it keeps piling up, until their defenses are overwhelmed. Let's say someone has 30 ED/15 rED against your 4d6 attack. 1st increment: average damage 14 stun, 4 body = 0 damage 2nd increment: average damage 14 more stun (total 28), 4 more body (total 8)= 0 damage 3rd increment: average damage 14 stun (total 42), 4 more body (total 12) = 12 stun 4th increment: average damage 14 stun (total 56), 4 more body (total 16) = 14 more stun and 2 body See how it works? if their defenses only apply once, eventually they get overwhelmed. Meanwhile, you're off having a sandwich. You can even be dead and it still does the damage to them.
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Post by CRTaylor on May 1, 2014 21:24:55 GMT
Oh and if you want a deadly poison, throw in a 1/2d6 KA (10 points) the same speed as the drain. Even a 1 body KA could work, with NND: life support vs poison and does body added in. a 1/2d6 drain and 1 body KA would be a pretty cheap, small power. But you can get really scary with it. Example:
HEINOUS POISON Drain BODY 1/2d6, Expanded Effect BOD, CON, REC, STUN all at once (+1 1/2), Damage Over Time, Target's defenses only apply once, Lock out (cannot be applied multiple times) (12 damage increments, damage occurs every Segment, can be negated by antidote, any healing; +4) (32 Active Points); Limited Power AVAD: life support vs poison negates (-1/2), Linked to RKA (-1/2) (21 real points) +plus+ Heinous Poison: Killing Attack - Ranged 1 point, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (life support vs poison; All Or Nothing; +1), Does BODY (+1), Damage Over Time, Target's defenses only apply once, Lock out (cannot be applied multiple times) (9-12 damage increments, damage occurs every Segment, +4) (35 Active Points); No Range (-1/2) (24 real points)
Expensive? Yes, because I stacked on all those extra stats to go over the top; it would be a lot cheaper if it was only body drain. But this will do an average of 21 character points of drain in 12 seconds from body, stun, dex, and recovery all at once, plus 12 body and roughly 21 stun... and that means one dead target in very short order. Like, take 7 steps fast.
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kravenkor
Double Digit Master
"We're making a better world; all of them. Better worlds."
Posts: 92
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Post by kravenkor on May 1, 2014 21:26:20 GMT
Which is again only possible if you also use every dirty trick to make that small effect not bounce off entirely. AVAD or the like. Not at all. Simply take the "defenses only apply once" adder. See, each phase the 4d6 goes off in your example, it keeps piling up, until their defenses are overwhelmed. Let's say someone has 30 ED/15 rED against your 4d6 attack. 1st increment: average damage 14 stun, 4 body = 0 damage 2nd increment: average damage 14 more stun (total 28), 4 more body (total 8)= 0 damage 3rd increment: average damage 14 stun (total 42), 4 more body (total 12) = 12 stun 4th increment: average damage 14 stun (total 56), 4 more body (total 16) = 14 more stun and 2 body See how it works? if their defenses only apply once, eventually they get overwhelmed. Meanwhile, you're off having a sandwich. You can even be dead and it still does the damage to them. Sure... but that doubles the value of the advantage and makes my 4d6 DoT a 70 AP power. For a grand total of 14 STUN, 2 BODY against your 30ED/15rED brick. Not saying it is useless; just that I haven't found many good cost-effective builds using DoT that don't either go pretty high on AP, or don't have other, "dirty trick" modifiers.
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Post by CRTaylor on May 1, 2014 21:42:58 GMT
No, the total damage as 26 stun and 2 body, while you're doing other attacks and taking other actions. that's why it says 14 "more" stun. Against a brick.
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kravenkor
Double Digit Master
"We're making a better world; all of them. Better worlds."
Posts: 92
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Post by kravenkor on May 2, 2014 16:52:31 GMT
I guess what I want a DoT to do is a small amount of damage per tick, rather than a build up as you describe; and I read the math wrong but the point still stands about the cost of adding the "Defenses only apply once" feature (which can indeed turn DoT into a deadly affair.)
And thus far the only workable way I've seen to make such a DoT is by using AVAD + Does BODY on a 1-pip or 1/2d6 RKA, or a similar Drain with Cumulative.
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Post by CRTaylor on May 2, 2014 20:15:47 GMT
Right, the "defenses only apply once" is a big shift in power. If you don't have that, then you have a nice little poison that someone with tolerable defenses (like power defense) can resist but tears apart people who don't have it. Typically drains work well at low levels just because in the campaigns I've run at least, its not a particularly common defense. DOT works well for weird builds like Aids, too. I can hit you with something that just keeps building up over time.
Its a weird new concept but once I figured it out, it was amazingly useful.
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