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Post by CRTaylor on Aug 12, 2021 5:01:33 GMT
OK so going through the Fantasy Codex, I'm doing rebuilds and adding some new ideas. One of them was the idea of a mage being able to summon a weapon, armor, shield, etc for others to use. Here, a sword! Its a real sword, just mundane, although the GM could rule that by its nature it acts as magical against targets resistant to non-magical attacks, but has no enchantment. So far so good. But then, I built the things. They're not bad... individually. Conjure sword is around 25 active points, for example. That's a Journeyman level spell, something a trained and skilled but not master expert mage could learn and use. Think, oh, 8-12th level D&D character, maybe. But then I built a spell called Panoply that summons all three at once for someone instead of having to cast each spell at a time, and it turned out like this (its a really complicated build because of the way Hero Designer works, and the way the "differing modifiers" rules works, but the active point costs are pretty normal. Panoply: (Total: 71 Active Cost, 6 Real Cost) Resistant Protection (8 PD/8 ED) (24 Active Points); Magic (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, Deliberate, -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Costs Mana (Only Costs Mana to Activate; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 7) <b>plus</b> (5 Active Points); Normal Mass (-1), OIF (-1/2), Real Armor (-1/4) for up to 5 Points of Conjure Armor A (Real Cost: -3) <b>plus</b> Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6+1 (2d6 w/STR) (20 Active Points); Magic (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, Deliberate, -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 6) <b>plus</b> (8 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), Strength Minimum 9 (-1/4) for up to 8 Points of Conjure Sword A (Real Cost: -5) <b>plus</b> +2 DCV (10 Active Points); Magic (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, Deliberate, -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Costs Mana (Only Costs Mana to start; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3) <b>plus</b> (4 Active Points); OAF (-1), Strength Minimum 5 (-1/4), Real Armor (-1/4) for up to 4 Points of Conjure Shield A (Real Cost: -2) That... SEVENTY-ONE ACTIVE POINTS. and I left off the +1 OCV bonus you get for using a sword. Now, I get that this is 3 powers at once, but its three minor powers, its not like the spell is granting Flash-like speed or dragon breath. Its a sword, a shield, and a suit of plate armor. Good for any basic knight. Nice stuff but not earth shattering. 71 points is a HUGE amount in a Fantasy Hero game. Its game-breaking levels of points, its the kind of power level that the big bad guy at the end of the adventure uses, spells that level cities. That's frustrating. I'd use Object Creation, but the write up for that specifically states that it cannot be used to make items that other powers build instead. Like RKA to build a sword. But I might end up using OC anyway and house rule in mundane items. Its not like someone's making a rocket launcher here.
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Duke
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Post by Duke on Aug 13, 2021 0:05:01 GMT
I'd use Object Creation, but the write up for that specifically states that it cannot be used to make items that other powers build instead. Ah! _There's_ your problem! That part right there. You are not ignoring the Hell out of that. Do so, and you should solve your problem.
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Post by CRTaylor on Aug 14, 2021 15:37:25 GMT
Yeah I went with the Object Creation rules, modified to allow creating mundane, common objects even if they are weapons or armor.
I have the opposite problem with another spell: creating siege engines.
I built them as vehicles, since they are basically towed weapons, and it works well. But they are not terribly expensive vehicles. In fact they are really cheap: like 24 points for the most expensive (siege tower). So I looked at building them as just a power but making a power that you set up and then use as you will is... well you can see the problems I've brought up on the main board. So summon seems like the most logical choice.
But its damn cheap to summon a trebuchet this way and I feel like it ought to be an expensive spell, something only a very skilled caster should be able to do. I don't want any hedge wizard and debutante to pop out siege weapons for a war.
So I'm working on some way to make the concept more expensive, oddly enough. Object Creation might work, again, although that seems to be stretching the concept a bit.
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Duke
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Post by Duke on Aug 14, 2021 18:10:26 GMT
Agreed: Once people began to understand that Summon could go well beyond "I conjure the Demon Ba-hooziwatsys," it got out of hand really quickly. Problematically, it really is the single cleanest solution if you are wanting to stay entirely in the dominion of RAW. If you like the summon solution, however, it leaves you with two options: accept that it's ridiculously easy for a low-powered magic wielder to summon cataclysmic damage devices, or find a way to really up the cost. It's not my campaign; I will leave it to you to decide if Summon is correct, ultimately, for your game, but going on the assumption that it is: Determine that in order to summon things that don't have proper names (ie, demons, angels, and other living or quasi-alive things), the wielder must have some intimate knowledge or a solid understanding of the thing and how it works. This is going to add the cost of a Knowledge Skill, certainly, and possibly even a couple of broader category skills: Engineering, carpentry, and who-knows-what-else. In the end, though, this is really no more an issue than Normal Characteristic Maxima: once the entry fee has been paid, it's business as usual. Consider giving a "complexity" modifier for the gadget being created in addition to understanding how it works: the more complex it is, the more difficult the Summon Skill roll. Beyond that, consider "Summon Trebuchet" to be a skill completely separate from "Summon Catapult" or "Summon Battering Ram." Each specific summon skill would need to be purchased in this case, though the Engineering and Carpentry (and whatever else) skills could be complimentary to the roll or perhaps even reduce the complexity modifier. To be certain, though: you are still in the "once the entry fee is paid" camp with these solutions. You might also consider mass modifiers: the bigger something is, the more difficult it is to Summon-- this would work akin to Active Points modifiers, or possibly even in conjunction with them. I almost like that solution, as it means that the Character would have to start out with smaller items and work his way up through study and Skill Advancement to offset or absorb penalties brought on by the size, power, and complexity of the things he was attempting to summon. Skills _are_ cheap to advance, to be clear, but it would take quite some time to advance them to the point that the wizard is summoning massive siege engines all wily-nilly. I don't know how your magic system works, but you might also require increased expenditures of whatever you are calling magic fuel based on the complexity and size of the item, not just the END of the Summon spell itself. The problem, ultimately, is that HERO is Champions. It always was, and it always will be, and in Champions, "Focus" is a limitation and nothing more: the "cost" of building a gadget is Character Points, reduced by a Limitation. There are no actual rules for _building_ a focus; there are only rules for defining it.
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Post by CRTaylor on Aug 14, 2021 18:57:30 GMT
This is the kind of discussion that is supposed to happen. Here's an idea, I dunno maybe something like this, not USE THIS ITS THE HERO WAY SHUT UP CHEATER HERETIC
Look at my request for a construct that is like a modified constant. "Why are you trying to make a limitation? Why are you trying to cheat! STOP TRYING TO GET AWAY WITH THINGS!" What the hell kind of response is that? Do people think this somehow encourages people to play the game? I literally and specifically asked four times how this idea I have is any more avoiding start up limitations than Constant (or time limit) and got utterly ignored, instead repeatedly insulted by Simon. I know he's kind of a rough around the edges guy, but really?
Its not like I'm building a character to try to cheat, I' not trying to break the system. I'm trying to build products for Hero games. That's where these questions come up. "huh, I'm not sure how to build this. Maybe some other players have ideas?"
My mistake.
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Duke
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Post by Duke on Aug 15, 2021 16:03:46 GMT
There is a reason he is known as the Vice President of Sales Prevention. It's particularly grating that he makes no bones about playing favorites: Ed went on a six-paragraph tear of insulting me over the fact that I had stated in a conversation that I "did not use HERO Designer" and that "it wasn't the sort of thing I was interested in because I actively _enjoy_ the pencil-to-paper character creation process." Seriously: six paragraphs of not argument, not veiled meaning or suggestive double-entendre, but open insults and derision of all kinds. I replied with a single paragraph of why I enjoy paper and pencil character creation and a single comment to the effect of "I am not part of your sycophantic fan club, and never have been. But if this stays up here like it is, I am going to take it as not just an indication that this sort of behavior is allowed,but as clear permission to be able to respond to you in kind." What happened? Dildo Dan deleted my post, slapped with my #2 "you have taken the unremovable stain and the third one will ban you forever!" and just _guess_ what that black mark was?! Guess what I was called out for? "Abusive behavior." ROFL No; I'm serious! I respond with "let me explain to you why I like this" and "don't talk to me in a way that you don't want me to reply back" and "is this clearly rules-breaking behavior going to be tolerated?" and _I_ get the punishment for abusive behavior. ROFL Now none of this is particularly secret. I have avoided any thread with Dan Simon in it simply because I had only to read any two of his posts to know precisely what he was as a human being, and years ago I figured out that he has clear favorites who are allowed to break the rules at their whim without any fear of repercussion or reprimand or even edit! But woe upon those who do not cow to the Children of Dan, for they shall be branded heretical and dangerous and be punished for their blasphemous ways..... At any rate, not only have I not bought a damned thing from the HERO store since it was proven to me that there is not even a pretense of impartial moderation from the Dildo in Chief, I have still continued to attempt to fill holes in my paper book collection (there are still a couple of 5e books I don't have, and I have very little 6e material outside the blue books and Fantasy HERO, but I am filling those gaps _exclusively_ through aftermarket purchase. That is to say that even when I can find these books new from the HERO store or from other retailers, I am actively hunting private sales from individual owners. I love the fact that HERO is still alive and well, but I have had to face the fact that neither of those statements is true: HERO Games doesn't not exist, and will never again exist: it doesn't even own the properties that we all consider to be "HERO Games." It doesn't own Champions at all but sold it to a video game company who made a game that, apparently, petered out and failed, though there is some recent renewed interest and we are still uncertain as to the legality of said interest....? and then licenses the right to use the properties that they themselves bought from the creators and then sold. The rules themselves have, despite the mantra of "this is the game! This is the core!" do not feel the same anymore: they have gone from something inspirational and glorious to something oppressive and tiny-cog-in-a-monolithic-machine depressing. There is no HERO System with the fire and spark and open creativity I remember; there is only "Steve's Game," and long-time fans have gone to great lengths to convince themselves that Steve's Game is just like Champions, and just like Fantasy HERO, and just like Star HERO-- and the fact is that it's not. If they can get that far, they will state "But it plays the same!" and the fact is that it plays _similar_ to Champions, kind of.... It does not play like Fantasy HERO. It does not play like Star HERO. It does not play _remotely_ like Robot Warriors... Well, vaguely like Robot Warriors thanks to Chris's conversion document, but the oppressive stifling and mandates that squash the open and free feeling of all the HERO games that came before? The part that begged creativity and breathed life into the rules? Gone. It's not the same. Jason-- I really like Jason; he seems very personable, but at the end of the day, he is running a business, and has financial motivation to _be_ a personable individual, so how much of what we see is genuine interest in preserving HERO Games and how much is keeping what remains of an owned property financially viable? For the record, I believe he _does_ really enjoy HERO Games, simply because of his interest in ensuring that everything HERO ever put out becomes immortalized in an electronic version, always available, at least as long as there is an internet-- you know the internet: the capitalist version of a museum? No buildings necessary, and pay to see whatever you would like to see? Still, I applaud him for the effort. The upshot of all this is that there isn't a HERO Games; there is only Department of Justice. There isn't a HERO System as HERO Games would have written it; there is Steve's Game. There aren't interesting genre books or campaign books to be used to kick off a long-running and successful campaign, populated by your stories and characters and NPCs; there are Steve's worlds-- so complete, so detailed, so filled with minutiae as to not even need plots or adventurers to explore them. Dan is not the problem of HERO Games. Dan is just another symptom; he is simply the most obvious and pronounced indicator that HERO Games and all that it was is dead in everything but the rented name work like the face skinned from a corpse by a well-intentioned impostor, and it is never coming back. It is never going to be more than further and more oppressive, more heavily-mandated versions of Steve's Game until Steve's Game has grown so large and so filled with mandated actions, interactions, corner-case interpretations, and optional and optional-optional rules variants that it is no longer rules at all, and certainly not any kind of organized "system," and collapses in on itself, waiting for the next well-intentioned ghoul to carefully peel of its face and hope the video game company that owns the most essential part of what this game means to us still exists, and will still let us rent the thing that inspired so many of us. So blast Dan all you want-- I don't see it doing any good, as I expect he and I are very similar in our concerns about what strangers think of us. But sure: you'll get no argument that he's a first-class dick. Just remember that he's not the entirety of the problem anymore than he is the saint that his sycophants feel him to be. Remember that his more the "Steve's Game" version of those staffers who came before. Don't get me wrong: there are parts of Steve's Game that I enjoy-- if that were not true, I would not be so intent on collecting them, right? But it will never give me the same pleasure that anything by HERO Games did.
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Post by CRTaylor on Aug 16, 2021 19:57:08 GMT
I've found that Hero plays exactly the same as always -- nothing fundamental has changed in any way about the game play rules -- but it GM's differently.
What I mean is this: the game has gotten so meticulous and specific about every instance and situation that as a GM you find yourself second guessing, looking things up, and trying to find a ruling on things rather than just going with your gut and experience of running the system for years.
Building characters has changed, with greater complexity available and more specificity, but the actual play is pretty much the same as it was in 1980: roll 3 dice to hit, normal and killing damage, etc.
But on the boards there are increasingly shrill voices that cannot accept the possibility that the system may not be 100% perfect and complete, nor that something might be subject to any change. Question anything and you get asinine responses, defensiveness, anger, and even personal attacks.
Or, you get suggestions which are not sufficient, and then increasing rage when you point that out (cumulative mind control, for example).
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Duke
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Posts: 162
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Post by Duke on Aug 16, 2021 23:10:26 GMT
GM'ing and Character Creation pretty much _are_ the play that I get, for like thirty years now. The fact that those are not the same means _everything_ to me. As far as actual gameplay: When was the last time your COM affected a social skill? Okay, that last one was a bit tongue in cheek. Realistically, it _does_ play differently as well: since every third rule has two variants and every fourth rule has three variants, as a player, which rules are you following? As a GM, you have the mandate to literally _write a rules book_ from the suggested variants-- you know: you have to do the thing you were trying to avoid by buying a rules book. There are enough "official variants" at this point that even the idea of playing "RAW" is beyond laughable. I say this not because I am feeling particularly out of character, but because on this board, I can fully be myself: Do whatever the fuck you want. It's all HERO now! _However_, to steer back to your original problem: suppose _this_ for "Object Creation:" The rules (even the RAW ones) allow for Duplicates to be wackily different from the original (you know: as "duplicates" so often are :rolleyes: ) Buy the Duplication Power, useable as attack (you have been reading the cantrips thread, so I'm sure you know where this is going), only against objects, constant, zero end, No Conscious Control (and whatever else Steve requires these days to create a "fire and forget" power... Change Environ--- no; wait! Images! It's Images, right? Gotta be Images.....) Anyway, you "duplicate" something-- perhaps that yacht over yonder-- but it ends up being a trebuchet. Oh well.... I'm not going to (ever) wade through the mire that is 6e again, but I'm betting that's _technically_ legal, and that seems to really be all the sycophants care about. Go for it.
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