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Post by Chris Goodwin on Feb 4, 2014 17:56:38 GMT
I would change Shapeshifting a bit. It just seems a bit wonky. I totally agree. For starters, I'd change the wording of Touch Group Shapeshift to Shapeshift: Physical Form, and mention that Physical Form covers Touch rather than the other way around. That just seems odd to me. Then I'd probably do something like: 3 points - Cosmetic change to Physical Form or one Sense 5 points - Minor change to Physical Form or one Sense 5 points - Cosmetic change to one Sense Group 8 points - Major change to Physical Form or one Sense 8 points - Minor change to one Sense Group 10 points - Major change to one Sense Group +3 points - add one Sense +5 points - add one Sense Group The level of change is equivalent to Transform, except that you're not switching your own points around (buy Multiform for that). I would also say that you can choose one memorized form that you can change into, which ordinarily would represent your original form. For +1 point you can buy an additional memorized form, or for +5 you can buy a "floating" form slot (which you can change through study; see below). If you've bought five additional memorized forms, then it's +5 points per 2x. To memorize a form you have to take One Turn to study the form, and you can only study it with whatever Senses you ordinarily possess (you can buy additional Senses with Only To Study Forms as a Limitation). You have to be able to study the form in person; if you study it via photograph, video, etc., it takes a minimum of One Minute, longer at the GM's option, and may require a Disguise or other Skill Roll.
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 4, 2014 18:26:41 GMT
Shapeshift is wierd in that its really expensive to do tiny minor stuff and dirt cheap to be able to change into anything whatsoever. And its granularity is very odd. One form, a couple forms, ANYTHING.
Honestly its not a very powerful ability, so it shouldn't cost too terribly much. Its essentially a minor images only for yourself to look like something else. If you can't get shapeshift to be similar to that cost structure, then its not a very good design. I like the idea of breaking it down into different senses, but it has to be cheap to do so.
Speaking of senses, there's not enough differentiation between senses in the game in terms of cost. Flash should be cheaper against very minor senses. Flashing sight can get you killed, flashing sense of taste is a minor irritation.
And personally, I think that invisibility, darkness, etc should not target a sense group by default. It should be against a sense, and a bit more expensive against a sense group, rather than slightly cheaper to be against one sense.
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Post by Sketchpad on Feb 4, 2014 21:54:41 GMT
I hate to say it, but VPP: Shapeshift works better for me. Mind you, it requires someone to have some knowledge of the system (or to pre-build some things), but the end result seems much more like the shapeshifting I need.
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kravenkor
Double Digit Master
"We're making a better world; all of them. Better worlds."
Posts: 92
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Post by kravenkor on Feb 5, 2014 16:57:56 GMT
I'd probably just change shapeshift into a limited form of Multiform, where you only pay for differences from your base form.
But a Multipower or VPP devoted to such would work just as well, if not better than, the current Shapeshift power.
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 6, 2014 5:31:28 GMT
I built a guy that could become any animal (Zoo Boy!!) and I built it with power pool: only for multiform and shape shift. Technically a rule breaker, but it was a very effective way of letting him become any animal below a certain point value and he certainly didn't dominate the campaign in any way. His only real glory moment was charging a target as a gazelle, leaping with a turn and turning into a blue whale to side swipe it. Only worked because the target was stunned.
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gojira
Double Digit Master
in a rubber monster suit.
Posts: 85
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Post by gojira on Feb 7, 2014 8:36:38 GMT
And then there's a lot of 4th and 3rd edition builds, where "shape shift" is just the special effect of using your powers.
I.e. a vampire for 3rd edition had a power: 40" Flight. The special effect was he turned into a bat. Easy peasey. Why pay points for stuff that doesn't really have an effect on play?
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Post by Tasha on Feb 8, 2014 10:49:17 GMT
Then how do I become the woman of a thousand faces. My powers stay the same but my outer form changes including color of skin, hair etc? IIRC Shapeshift was a very inexpensive power in earlier editions. It became more complicated around 4th edition. Definatly by 5th it became the expensive monster we are currently annoyed at. Perhaps instead Shapeshift 20pts to one form. x4 forms +5pts, +5 points to change cosmetic things at will, Need to buy Shrinking or Growth to change more than a few inches larger or smaller.
If your Shapeshift is based on an illusion use the Illusion power instead.
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 8, 2014 15:34:42 GMT
I don't mind the different senses construct, it just feels weird the way its built and its way too expensive for what you get. Perhaps modifiers for only working against some senses should be used rather than cost based on that. So its 20 points to change shapes, but -1 if only a single sense (maybe -1 1/2 if its a non combat sense). Shapeshift doesn't really do that much so it shouldn't cost much.
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Post by Thia Halmades on Feb 14, 2014 16:21:45 GMT
Caveat: I don't recall weighing in on Shapeshift as a power. Had I known what a Charlie Foxtrot it would have been, I likely would have gone a different route and said something. So, for the record, here's my take on it:
First, agreed, it's "broken," in the sense that it takes far too long to get where you're going. Additionally, most people purchase it with RSS, Disguise or RSS, Persuasion, etc. The problem I have with Shapeshift is that unlike most other abilities, the end goal is poorly defined.
"Uh, Thia, you look like something else. I don't get what you mean by 'poorly defined,' that's pretty straight forward."
Yes, that is, but the question is always, what does that actually mean? In other words, now I look like something else; so what? The GM has to now contemplate what advantages, bonuses, etc. are actually conveyed. It doesn't change PER rolls to see you; you need Invisibility or Darkness for that. It doesn't necessarily convince other people that you aren't you, that's Stealth. It can't guarantee that I see Chris Goodwin as my best friend Chris Hill beyond an initial visual inspection. The reason Shapeshift is broken is because it starts with a flawed assumption: That what we wanted to do was look different.
This is HERO. Looking different is a special effect. When I built Aiden, by Champions half-dragon super tank, I gave him Density Increase, Flight, and so on, "Only While in Draconic Form," and in effect convinced the GM that I'm not "shapeshifting," per the rules, but that the end result of me activating my power suite was turning into a dragon. So now I'm a dragon; I fly, breath energy blasts, and weigh a few tonnes. I look, sound, and feel like a flying lizard with armor and crystalline ridges. That's the end result. You don't purchase Shapeshift to do that, you don't need it.
To wit, I don't use Shapeshift. Let's take Tasha's example; she wants to be the woman of 1,000 Faces. "Great," I say, "What do you want that to do?" "I want to look different." "Right, but what's the result? Are you harder to detect? Do you blur perception? Do you avoid detection? What?" "Oh. Um, I can convince people that I'm whoever I say I am." "Okay, that's Mind Control/Mental Illusions." But I want to look different!" "Okay, when the power is running, as a Special Effect, you look different."
Or.
"Okay, let's buy Shapeshift to Sight, infinite forms, and off you go. That power is Linked (-1/2) to the others to make it cheaper as I, the GM, don't care. We all agree you've changed your look, but that isn't the objective. The objective is to convince NPCs that you aren't you, or you are someone else."
That's my problem with it. Not that it doesn't do what it says, but that what it does it's useful outside of adding an actual mechanical result.
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Post by Tasha on Feb 15, 2014 0:53:44 GMT
Mental illusions don't work when my flesh actually changes to another form. Sometimes you want to be a version of the Marvel Character Mystique. She can change her outer form to appear as anyone including a "generic person". She can change everything about herself including height within a certain amount of leeway (about a foot bigger or smaller). Her skin becomes the clothing of the person she's trying to be. That cloth feels real. DC's Martian Manhunter and Mary Martian are both shapechangers that actually change their forms.
Mental Illusions don't fit the bill as someone doen't snap out of the dream and see the person underneath. Illusions don't either as you don't make a perception roll and see that it's an illusion. Heck, in someways it seems like her power trumps the Disguise skill. She looks at someone and she can change into them. IMHO it's more than a special effect. IN all three of the cases above what power can you point to that makes her look different?
I know that Hero isn't supposed to have any effects that don't require a roll of some sort, but Shapeshift seems to be one that makes sense to do so otherwise you add anamolies into the power that don't allow it to be used to simulate a common power in Comics.
BTW it's Disguise that allows you to look like a specific individual.
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 15, 2014 6:23:38 GMT
I agree with what Thia is saying, and its a key point. It has no actual game effect, its all physical appearance. In other words, it's just a special effect, which you can model with a dozen other abilities instead. That's fine in one sense, but if you recognize that, suddenly the cost is outrageously high. If you're just buying a detached special effect without any game or mechanical impact, then it should be dirt cheap.
You gain no combat OR non combat abilities, simply an appearance. That's just not worth much. Maybe 5 points, like Extra Limbs. It could give a bonus to disguise or other skill attempts, and you could by this power look like a dog or a kitchen table or something, so maybe a bonus to concealment, but that's pretty much all it does. Think about it: Plastic Man or Mr Fantastic's ability to change shape isn't their real power, in Hero terms. Their real power is to stretch, to absorb damage, and to hit things hard.
They're effectively immortal and incredibly hard to hurt, but those are different powers that have the special effect of shapeshifting. Its too bad we didn't have this as part of the discussion when 6th was being worked on, because that could have made a big difference.
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Post by Tasha on Feb 15, 2014 7:36:01 GMT
Ok tell me how to build Mystique or the Martian Manhunter (or Mary Martian)'s Shapeshift power. Their shapeshift is NOT attached to another power. I agree that it's not a 60pt power, but It's probably worth more than a 5 pt nothing to be able to look like anything or anyone.
Also I think that this is a case where the "simplification" of removing a power would actually make things harder on people.
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Post by Thia Halmades on Feb 15, 2014 12:35:38 GMT
So here's the rub; if you (Tasha, Goddess, Playah) tell me (Thia, Lord Captain, GM) that you want to be able to LOOK LIKE anyone else (and I was thinking about this yesterday after my initial post, and I did realize something that Shapeshift carries that no other Power does) then I will agree that you should buy Shapeshift, and reduce the cost appropriately, given that the one thing you want to do is (whether I think it's useful or not) look like someone that you're not.
Again, for me, not a great use of points, but okay. That's not the one thing that makes it interesting.
What makes it interesting is when you buy Cellular, Imitation, and Instant Change, and I think this is where it breaks down for me more specifically. To build Mystique, you need all three, plus, the visual and audio changes (we know from canon that Wolverine can always smell Mystique). This has a game effect whenever we get into a Dark Champions or higher level world where cellular security devices come up once every third game; this would be the best way around them. On that, I have to concede the point, and, the 25 points base for all three of those does seem reasonable to my mind on the surface.
In that, I would concede the point; Shapeshift will cover those things, but for me, it should not be more than 5 points base (visual) and 3 points for everything else, meaning that I would charge 30 points for the standard Mystique build, before Advantages/Limitations. Because that's actually the game mechanic (which is really a handwave; we say it happens so it does) I can see burning the points to do it. If you just (ie, only) want to look like someone you're not, bearing in mind that without imitation you can't look like other people, then I see it being far less utilitarian.
A nod to you, ma'am. Well played.
Still disagree except in the specific case you mentioned, but, well played.
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 15, 2014 17:30:53 GMT
I could see 5 points per sense group or 3 points for a sense. Add in cellular and imitation at 5 points each additional. Then you buy instant change, zero END cost, disguise, acting, and voila, you've spent about 45 points on a suite of related abilities. It does way more than just make you look like someone.
But to just morph your appearance into a facsimile? 5-10 points to seem to be a bear until closer examination, because it doesn't do anything else.
That wouldn't actually eliminate the power, it strips it down to a reasonable cost for what you get out of it.
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gojira
Double Digit Master
in a rubber monster suit.
Posts: 85
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Post by gojira on Feb 15, 2014 18:44:18 GMT
Then how do I become the woman of a thousand faces. My powers stay the same but my outer form changes including color of skin, hair etc? IIRC Shapeshift was a very inexpensive power in earlier editions. OK, I see your point. I didn't understand your reply initially, and I thought perhaps you were replying to someone else. My bad. I agree that if "shape shift" is your only power, that's what you should buy. And I assume that Shapeshift is just Images, with about -10 to Per roll, Sight group and Touch group, and Self Only and "Human appearance only" as a custom limitation (prob about -2). So boom, you look and feel like a new thing, and for -10 to the Per roll we can assume that you're undetectable as anything but. Thia still has a point that there's no further rules for doing the obvious: impersonating another character, or pretending to be someone you're not. Those are Acting skill rolls, I assume (wait is that even a skill here?). But there's no official rule for it, so it's all kinda left up to the GM. There isn't even a pointer to the Disguise skill (which you mention) in the description of Shapeshift. So anyone, myself included, but especially anyone new who is trying to learn the system, is left adrift wondering what to do next. (BTW, I don't recall Shapeshift in 3rd edition, unless it was in one of the supplements. I'm pretty sure it wasn't in the original rule book. I've got it open here and there's nothing between Running and Shrinking. So I think that Shapeshift wasn't "more complicated" in 4th ed., it was brand new.) And as often as I argue against more rules, it's still the case that the rules must be complete enough to allow players to use them reasonably, without too much ad hoc invention. This is a case where some more information should be present.
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