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Post by Chris Goodwin on Feb 3, 2014 16:38:40 GMT
Over on Champions, we were talking about: My favorite was honestly the vague universe defined by the common characters from the Enemies books and whatever NPCs the GM came up with and the players wrote down for their Hunteds. You could say "Let's play Champions," write up characters, and away we went. That's the big advantage of D&D, so much material out there to just drop into a game and play. I'm trying to get stuff out there for Fantasy Hero, maybe make it easier for people. I've been thinking about this a lot over the past couple of years, and I think that we've got it all wrong about Fantasy Hero. For years, the idea was that if you wanted to play or run Fantasy Hero you had to create a world and a magic system before you got started, right? I think not. I think we've got enough material that we really could just sit down, write up characters, and play. We used to do it under first edition FH, after all, and I think we're not too far removed from there. For starters, we've got the implied magic system from first edition FH to play around with. We've got multiple worked example magic systems in 5e/6e, and premade spell lists and monsters for every edition. I think we can do it as easily under any edition of FH as we could under any edition of D&D. Am I completely off base? |
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 3, 2014 19:03:06 GMT
There's probably enough stuff out to play Fantasy Hero in terms of the raw materials, but there needs to be more adventures and treasures and such so people can play. Making a character is no big deal using the FH rules, and there are lots of books of spells and monsters out there. But what do you do next?
And when you start creating adventures, you need a consistent setting and rules so the spells and treasures and monsters all end up being the same and easy to refer to.
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Post by Chris Goodwin on Feb 3, 2014 19:18:02 GMT
There's probably enough stuff out to play Fantasy Hero in terms of the raw materials, but there needs to be more adventures and treasures and such so people can play. Making a character is no big deal using the FH rules, and there are lots of books of spells and monsters out there. But what do you do next? True. And true, but I'll point out that D&D has an implied setting built into the mechanics, and we've always had an implied setting with Champions. It might not be possible to come up with an implied setting with Fantasy Hero because of the sheer variety of possible fantasy settings, but maybe there's at least an implied setting by subgenre. |
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Post by Chris Goodwin on Feb 3, 2014 19:29:08 GMT
Aha. I found the World of Generica at Killer Shrike's site. I think this is something like what I'm thinking of. |
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Post by Sketchpad on Feb 3, 2014 22:39:29 GMT
I think, as a template, Paizo has hit it right with Pathfinder. Personally, I don't mind the game, but it's the level of detail that really draws me into it. Start with a few adventures located around something small and then expand out to see a healthy chunk of the world before detailing as many countries as you can. Also the fact that the core books (75% of the HC) are meant to be generic, though use the ideas of Golarion as a base. Honestly, I would love to see something like that for Hero.  |
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Post by Thia Halmades on Feb 14, 2014 17:23:37 GMT
That's a great question. Can we just "play?"
Sure. As with any HERO game, we need some things in place first, so I'm going on an assumption that we've got the setting, in general (we'll say the setting is Forgotten Realms, for sake of discussion) and we have a general idea of what we all want to do. We can then make a few decisions about the basics and go. Yes. It can be done. The reason for the magic system debacle is this:
D&D set the standard for division among characters; before we ever get started, we have all the applicable rules and mechanics setup so that we have an idea of what's in the world. The common genre trope of a fantasy game is "fight & loot," ie, we go in, we get a quest, we go to the place, we blow the snot out of everything, we take their stuff, stuff makes us stronger. Back in the day someone said to me, "If you want to play D&D, just play D&D." I didn't really internalize what that meant, because I don't LIKE D&D; I want to tell a story, and D&D (and its derivatives) are all based on the hack/kill/loot/level paradigm. HERO doesn't do that. So in response to your first question, Chris, "Can we do it?" the answer is yes.
But what are we doing?
Is it going to be a conventional game, with overplots, subplots, and such? If that's what the players are looking for, then absolutely yes, without too much trouble we can go in and do that. That's fine. However, if they're looking for that loot & level paradigm, that's a different animal altogether. For that, we'd really need to figure out the nuances of combat, magic systems and such because the nature of the beast is to be class based. That's how we, on the outside, saw Tolkein's world; it's why Red Box D&D had "Elf" and "Dwarf" as stand alone classes in an attempt to emulate that.
Now we've moved forward and divided race/class into two categories. There are plenty of magic systems (the one I wrote in my d20 conversion is out there, Steve's is out there, Kamarathin's Zodiac system) so the key is not so much that we need to invent a new system, inasmuch as that we agree in advance what the foundation is, and how we want to proceed. What is the agreement among players & GM for the experience?
If it's "yes, throw us in!" Then I'd say make characters, have the casters build a VPP everyone agrees on, and roll with it. Who cares if the caster decides she wants to be an Elementalist, or a Summoner, or a Demonologist? In most fantasy settings all those things coexist. I think the crash comes when the GM wants to world-build, and hasn't found a space, mentally, for all of those things. Couple that with the trad. spell list, and you have a recipe for far more work than you likely wanted to do.
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Post by Chris Goodwin on Feb 14, 2014 18:14:52 GMT
I think the sole reason for doing D&D conversions to Hero is so that people who want to switch systems can have a somewhat familiar environment and can realize their familiar characters in the new system. I think that if people who are playing D&D are happy playing loot & level games, Hero doesn't do that well out of the box, and they shouldn't take on an unfamiliar system with which to do it. (If I were going to specifically do that, I'd start by gradually "Hero-izing" the d20 experience, by packing in the Hero-like optional rules from Unearthed Arcana, then meet them halfway with the D&D-ized Fantasy Hero parts, but I'm not sure that's going to bring us more players in the long run.) I digress here for a couple of paragraphs... When I first got into the HERO System, it was via the old school, standalone, pre-4th edition games. I had already gotten burned out on AD&D and the D&D way of doing things, so I was definitely looking for more fertile pastures. I'd been looking at the other TSR boxed-set games and things like Palladium via Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, was getting interested in comic books and superhero roleplaying, and was pointing at Marvel Superheroes (a decent game in its own right, with its own innovations, but definitely missing something that I wanted). I'd had friends who played Champions, so I asked one of them "I want to start playing Champions. What do I need?" Picked up the 3rd edition book, and that was it. I immediately fell in love with the way it did pretty much everything, and couldn't help but compare it to D&D in my head. I pretty much overnight bought as many of the other games as I could, and that was all she wrote. I think my point is, I didn't get into Fantasy Hero because I hated D&D, I got into Champions because I was looking for more than the other systems were giving me, and Champions led directly into Fantasy Hero and later into the full HERO System. And while it wasn't a fully unified HERO System at the time, it was definitely a common house system, and the words "HERO System" were in use when I got into it. Just not in one book. Fantasy Hero isn't going to be a better D&D; HERO System is a better game. People who are happy with D&D aren't going to be attracted by Fantasy Hero, but if they're interested in superheroes they will definitely like Champions, and that's the door through which we can bring them in. Whew, I think that was waiting to come out for a long time, and Thia, your post gave me the reason.  I, and the group I originally played Fantasy Hero with, all came out of D&D, but there was some kind of unspoken agreement with all of us that we weren't here to just retread D&D. We were also into fantasy, science fiction, superheroes, action movies, anime, and so on and so forth, so we had other bits to draw on, and as a result our fantasy games were original -- like, really original. Now we've moved forward and divided race/class into two categories. There are plenty of magic systems (the one I wrote in my d20 conversion is out there, Steve's is out there, Kamarathin's Zodiac system) so the key is not so much that we need to invent a new system, inasmuch as that we agree in advance what the foundation is, and how we want to proceed. What is the agreement among players & GM for the experience? Yes, this is what exactly what I'm getting at with this thread (and also IMO what the official "Fantasy Hero Complete" should focus on). We could just "write up characters and play" with first edition Fantasy Hero because there was a foundation there, a default implied magic system that you could start with or chuck out as the mood struck you. We got away from that with 4e and beyond, and I think that's what's got Fantasy Hero kind of bogged down. I'm going to write up probably a 2-page "Chris's Foundation for Fantasy Hero" essentially rehashing that original implied magic system, and go from there. Oooo, hey. Idea. Back in the old days, we could write up characters by ourselves, stick them in a notebook, and when someone said "Let's play" we could pull them out. The GM would need to look them over, of course, but we at least could do that. I think that this, above all, is the key to expanding and growing the HERO System player base. We pretty much can't do that anymore, not in a long time. |
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Post by Thia Halmades on Feb 14, 2014 18:32:16 GMT
That's the "thing" with HERO, though, is that you need certain rules in play before you can build; are we doing packages, how many points, etc. Again, I agree with some planning it can be done without significant effort, but outside of that, you'd be looking at some innate frustration.
In answer to your implied question, though, I submit this: I haven't done it, but I have the blue print in my mind. You CAN do a loot & level in HERO, if the GM and associated designers are willing to do it, and it will retain the "loot & level" feel that people find so addictive (and why I still play Borderlands 2 despite it being nearly 2 years old). You create level packages, and restrict all XP expenditure to those, in the strictest variation. So you start off with a template character (Fighter, Stabber, etc.) and you pick the 1st level of the class (points are then costed & assigned) you pick a race template (add it up) and off you go. Characters that hit or exceed the campaign limit for starting XP gain no additional XP until everyone else catches up; people with remaining XP can invest in improving stats, adding skill levels, buying followers/contacts, etc. They may not be attack, defenses, or other combat skills or super-skills (Feats). Then, level 2 of the applicable package conveys additional CSLs, points for skills, etc., all wrapped up in it.
In this way, HERO can not only simulate the L&L design, but improve upon it. Don't want plain old CSLs? No problem, talk to the GM once you're familiar with it and blam, off you go with your new set. Want to create a new class out of whole cloth? No need to blunder through the basics and wonder how to build things, you can just build it. It's HERO. This is the one thing I never understood why people were so resistant too; it's easy enough to do, just a matter of time. One thing I've learned from designing multiple worlds and settings is that people get "character creation fatigue," they want to build the thing but there are so many options, nuances, or new rules that their heads spin. Giving them templates and core concepts (I did this specifically with Persona) saves a tonne of time, effort, and aggravation.
And best of all, you can make it as close, or as far, from traditional D&D as you like. Because it's HERO.
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Post by Thia Halmades on Feb 14, 2014 18:34:51 GMT
Whew, I think that was waiting to come out for a long time, and Thia, your post gave me the reason. Uh. You're... welcome? |
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 15, 2014 6:52:31 GMT
I've found that hero does have that effect on new players, especially those with limited gaming experience. They are given the rules and lock up over the open sea of possibilities; they just don't know where to go or how to build a character. There are too many options and they can't even get started. Even holding their hand and working them through it they are just overwhelmed.
So yeah, templates, packages, and bundles for people to start from and build up from help a ton with this sort. And for experienced players, it gives a quick start. They aren't classes per se, but they are a good starting point and for a lot of new players they are a sort of lifeline to cling to. Plus, as Thia points out, they give players a quick start in a game.
When I ran a Fantasy Hero 101 game in town for new players, I provided basic archetype characters: sneaky theif, paladin, priest, mage, big tough warrior, ranger. Then I threw in some Hero specialties, such as the mage/warrior and the nature/druid type with a pet wolf. People picked something they liked and got a quick start. But sooner or later, people are going to want to build their own guy as they play Hero enough and discover how flexible it is.
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Post by alcamtar on Apr 5, 2014 7:51:43 GMT
I think the sole reason for doing D&D conversions to Hero is so that people who want to switch systems can have a somewhat familiar environment and can realize their familiar characters in the new system. I think that if people who are playing D&D are happy playing loot & level games, Hero doesn't do that well out of the box, and they shouldn't take on an unfamiliar system with which to do it. I think you nailed it. I do a D&D conversion more often than not, and the main reason is that I can do D&D in my sleep. Plus I have a boatload of adventures I could use if I had an easy conversion. It's the structure, and the familiarity. I want the simplicity of saying "three F1's led by an F4, plus an MU3." The only version of Fantasy Hero I ever felt was pick up and play was 1E. The reasons: - It presents a complete game, nothing additional additional needs to be done. There are no options to pick from, except maybe if you want bleeding or hit location. But those are run-time options, not character creation. - It provides a default setting, complete with races, magic, items, a wilderness map, and a sample adventure. The whole thing holds together stylistically, even the artwork is consistent. - The rules are dead simple. Just what you need, nothing more. It assumes the GM and players are intelligent enough to fill in the blanks without exhaustively specifying every variant and potential scenario. - It contains ONLY fantasy hero. No extra cruft to wade through. - Powers and skills are appropriately named for fantasy. 1E Fantasy Hero also gave me the equivalent of those F1's and F4's from D&D: Ruffians, Bandits, Enforcers, and Leaders. Those four covered all the bases adequately, and let me write up adventures just like I did for D&D. The preconfigured setting in 1E FH is also quite good. It is different enough from D&D to be fresh, yet familiar because it blends Tolkien and Dark Ages ideas. It was that freshness that draw me from AD&D1E to Fantasy Hero. Now, I did think that 4E Fantasy Hero was brilliant in its "campaign design" section, discussion of fantasy tropes, etc. It also had a ton of ready to run material which was awesome. But the spell colleges were 'meh', and overall the cool flavor completely got lost. Where 1E felt richly textured and evocative, 4E felt cartoony and silly. I think the awful Iron Crown artwork was largely to blame for that. The City of Demons adventure could have been dark and cool, but it was cartoonish and really turned me off. 4E also had the Western Shores which really wasn't too bad, though it was a bit oversimplified. I think it was 5E that really jumped the rails. I don't think I ever did read the entire FH book, it was just too much stuff and too wordy, and it was nothing but options. Fantasy Hero should answer your questions, not fill you with new ones. Oooo, hey. Idea. Back in the old days, we could write up characters by ourselves, stick them in a notebook, and when someone said "Let's play" we could pull them out. The GM would need to look them over, of course, but we at least could do that. I think that this, above all, is the key to expanding and growing the HERO System player base. We pretty much can't do that anymore, not in a long time. I used to put my NPCs and monsters on 3x5 cards. I kept them in a little card file. So convenient! You could do that back then. The writeups were straightforward, and the system was simple. Compare NPC/Creature writeups in Lands of Mystery with 5E or 6E. It's the difference between a 3x5 card and an full page. Everything is so complicated, so over-detailed, so verbose, and has so many options that it is no longer approachable. I pick up my copy of Monsters Minions and Marauders and stare at a creature writeup and it takes me several minutes to pick out the salient details and start forming a mental image of what this thing is like. In 1E FH, writeups were short, and most of the time I used the Creature Combat Summary. In fact, I still do. When I am running 5E or 6E, I pull out the bestiary and my eyes glaze over, so I grab my copy of 1E Fantasy Hero and pick a monster from it. I have a spreadsheet with the 1E monster converted to 5E and 6E, and an updated version of the combat summary. It is just right. Not too little, not too much. (Well, OCV/DCV/MOCV/MDCV are too much, but what can you do....) |
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Post by indianajoe on Apr 5, 2014 14:22:38 GMT
I think that Fantasy Hero Complete/Dungeon Hero/Fantasy Champions/Arthur should have an Archetypes section, similar to 6e Champions. Pick your archetype, characteristic set, power sets, relevant skill package, Complication set, and there you go. I actually had a, "heavy fighter" archetype written up but I lost it in a hard drive crash.
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Post by CRTaylor on Apr 5, 2014 15:44:32 GMT
The tough part for a lot of newer players in FH is not making the character so much as "leveling" up. They have a very hard time transitioning from the "X skills from a list per level" model to "anything you want with the points you get" Hero model. They can figure out what to take if you give them a block of things each "level" to choose from but getting a trickle of experience regularly confuses them with the possibilities.
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gojira
Double Digit Master
in a rubber monster suit.
Posts: 85 
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Post by gojira on Apr 16, 2014 16:40:58 GMT
I think that Fantasy Hero Complete/Dungeon Hero/Fantasy Champions/Arthur should have an Archetypes section, similar to 6e Champions. Pick your archetype, characteristic set, power sets, relevant skill package, Complication set, and there you go. I actually had a, "heavy fighter" archetype written up but I lost it in a hard drive crash. I actually like CTaylor's post two above this where he mentions his Fantasy 101 game. A completely worked out character with a few small options is better for new folks, otherwise they freeze up. There's plenty of time later for variety and options. If you want to also include an Archetype section with branching options, great. But the most important thing for getting someone new started is to limit their options and give them something they can pick up and run with right away. |
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Post by tikiman on May 23, 2014 0:53:04 GMT
I've found that hero does have that effect on new players, especially those with limited gaming experience. They are given the rules and lock up over the open sea of possibilities; they just don't know where to go or how to build a character. There are too many options and they can't even get started. Even holding their hand and working them through it they are just overwhelmed. So yeah, templates, packages, and bundles for people to start from and build up from help a ton with this sort. And for experienced players, it gives a quick start. They aren't classes per se, but they are a good starting point and for a lot of new players they are a sort of lifeline to cling to. Plus, as Thia points out, they give players a quick start in a game. When I ran a Fantasy Hero 101 game in town for new players, I provided basic archetype characters: sneaky theif, paladin, priest, mage, big tough warrior, ranger. Then I threw in some Hero specialties, such as the mage/warrior and the nature/druid type with a pet wolf. People picked something they liked and got a quick start. But sooner or later, people are going to want to build their own guy as they play Hero enough and discover how flexible it is. This is probably the best way to get someone interested in Hero. Honestly, all the time up front to create characters is a pain especially if you're new. So many possibilities is a vice and then a virtue once you understand what you can do. If one goes in without a concept, one can get mired in "Do I want this...or that...or the other?" Having some templates (in the vein of WEG Star Wars) to help can be a godsend. Once one plays for a while, things get much clearer and one realizes, "Gee, I wish this character was stronger and I don't really ever use this basket-weaving skill..." and then it's much easier to get thru character creation. At least that's my tuppence. |
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My favorite was honestly the vague universe defined by the common characters from the Enemies books and whatever NPCs the GM came up with and the players wrote down for their Hunteds. You could say "Let's play Champions," write up characters, and away we went. 
That's the big advantage of D&D, so much material out there to just drop into a game and play. I'm trying to get stuff out there for Fantasy Hero, maybe make it easier for people.
