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Post by CRTaylor on Mar 31, 2014 17:59:41 GMT
Anyone can hide behind a shield and let it take the damage from any weapon, that's its job. That happens in real life (riot shields). But knocking arrows and bullets out of the air is unquestionably a special power. Turning it back into a special power changes nothing you just argued, except to make it more plausible and believable as a system. Further, it fits the concepts and use in all settings and sources. Hero is basically positing that anyone has a shot at deflecting a blaster bolt or a pistol shot. That's something that is not in evidence in ANY source material, genre information, or setting anywhere.
I'm frankly amazed anyone would even dispute this.
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Post by CRTaylor on Mar 31, 2014 18:00:49 GMT
OK, now I'm lost. What does "it takes no special power to deflect bullets" refer to? If you mean armor or concrete walls, that's just a bunch of rPD. No, according to 6th edition rules, it just takes a block roll to deflect any missile-like ranged attack, be it an energy blast, bullets, arrows, what have you. Anyone can do this, with a block roll, unless the GM rules otherwise.
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kravenkor
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"We're making a better world; all of them. Better worlds."
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Post by kravenkor on Mar 31, 2014 18:42:37 GMT
Any way you slice it, "blocking bullets" does seem a crazy feature of the HERO System Combat Rules, and I think some clarity there in future editions would be helpful, whichever route was taken.
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gojira
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Post by gojira on Mar 31, 2014 20:35:43 GMT
OK, now I'm lost. What does "it takes no special power to deflect bullets" refer to? If you mean armor or concrete walls, that's just a bunch of rPD. No, according to 6th edition rules, it just takes a block roll to deflect any missile-like ranged attack, be it an energy blast, bullets, arrows, what have you. Anyone can do this, with a block roll, unless the GM rules otherwise. OK, first, thanks for clarifying. I was literally not following your previous points at all. Second, my copy of Champions Complete says "A character can normally Block and non-Area attack the he can perceive, though the GM should consider common sense, dramatic sense, and game balance when determining what attacks a character can Block." The second half of that sentence really says to me "you can't block bullets if it doesn't make sense in your game." Full stop. I think we have to allow that genres and GMs are different, and there needs to be flexibility in the game itself. Otherwise, we end up with a rule set that tries to detail each and every possible contingency and we're back to 800 pages for the basic rules, and I desperately don't want to go there ever again.
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Post by Chris Goodwin on Mar 31, 2014 20:55:27 GMT
In 6e, it takes GM permission to block a ranged attack. It's not that anyone can do it unless the GM rules otherwise, it's that anyone can do it if they ask the GM and it makes sense. It generally doesn't make sense in most genres for most characters to do something like block bullets, and as the GM anytime someone said they wanted to try I'd first ask what they were using to Block with. The Deflection Power has two major effects: it lets the character Block ranged attacks at range (at a distance from himself, in other words) and it essentially automatically grants that GM permission (not in so many words, but that's effectively what it does). I'd honestly let a character buy Deflection, No Range, if he wanted to always be able to block ranged attacks but never at a distance from himself (using a lightsaber, for instance) but if the character had a lightsaber he could do it without having to buy a special Power at all.
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kravenkor
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"We're making a better world; all of them. Better worlds."
Posts: 92
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Post by kravenkor on Mar 31, 2014 21:43:25 GMT
*I* get that but I think it is a confusing point for some players / GM's. May be more of an issue "between the chair and the book" (some players being of the "but the book says!" in response to GM rulings) but I think some more hard-wired rules for this would be useful.
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Post by Chris Goodwin on Mar 31, 2014 22:01:31 GMT
Back to the original topic: In a new edition of the HERO System, I'd like to see something like an equivalent to M&M's Feature. It's essentially the Powers list's equivalent to a Perk. Though in Hero, much of what it does is already covered by Life Support, Change Environment, a cosmetic Transform, Images, etc.
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gojira
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in a rubber monster suit.
Posts: 85
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Post by gojira on Mar 31, 2014 22:47:44 GMT
*I* get that but I think it is a confusing point for some players / GM's. May be more of an issue "between the chair and the book" (some players being of the "but the book says!" in response to GM rulings) but I think some more hard-wired rules for this would be useful. Honestly I think you are over-thinking this. The rule I quoted is clear as day to me. If someone makes a mistake... shrug. Not much we can do about that. At least for me personally this is not an overriding concern. Certainly not enough of a concern to add to the rules. Chris: I don't know what an M&M "Feature" is. Could you explain further? Is that like a list of genre conventions where it might say "In superheroes you can totally block bullets." And then "In modern, realistic genres you can't block bullets." Something like a concise list of which optional rules and conventions apply to which genres and game styles?
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kravenkor
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"We're making a better world; all of them. Better worlds."
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Post by kravenkor on Mar 31, 2014 22:57:28 GMT
I do tend to overthink things, but was more referring to a "certain kind of player" I've encountered. Again, more an issue with a person, than with the rules, but having the rules tweaked a touch to avoid that conversation and not leave it "to GM whim" would be good. In my opinion.
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Post by Chris Goodwin on Mar 31, 2014 22:58:00 GMT
Chris: I don't know what an M&M "Feature" is. Could you explain further? Is that like a list of genre conventions where it might say "In superheroes you can totally block bullets." And then "In modern, realistic genres you can't block bullets." Something like a concise list of which optional rules and conventions apply to which genres and game styles? Oh, this was more of a general post relating to the original topic of the thread, and had nothing to do with blocking missiles. From the M&M SRD (quoted text is OGL):
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Post by Chris Goodwin on Mar 31, 2014 23:04:35 GMT
Back to Deflection: if someone wanted to buy a Power to let them Block ranged attacks, and didn't want the full (ranged) portion of the Deflection Power, I'd either let them buy Deflection with No Range, or I'd just say hey, it costs 10 points instead of 20. In fact, that might be a house rule.
Wonder Woman's Bracelets: Deflection, 20 base points. No Range (-1/2), OIF (bracelets; -1/2). Real cost: 10 points.
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gojira
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in a rubber monster suit.
Posts: 85
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Post by gojira on Mar 31, 2014 23:56:56 GMT
You have one or more minor features, effects granting you an occasionally useful ability, one per rank. This effect is essentially a version of the Benefit advantage but a power rather than a virtue of skill, talent, or social background. For example, diplomatic immunity or wealth are Benefits; fur, the ability to mimic sounds, or a hidden compartment in your hollow leg are Features. OK, so that sounds like occasionally useful Powers based solely on special effect. Basically what Steve was against anybody getting unless you paid points for every last little thing. Yeah, I'm OK with giving players free stuff that they don't have to pay points for just because it's, you know, f'ing fun and therefore good for the game. Sorry if that came out rather bitter. Sounds good to me. More to the point, custom limitations are part of the game. The rules explicitly say you can make stuff like this up. Ayup. And thus the world is saved from 800 page rulebooks by player common sense. And sorry again if *that* came out bitter.
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Post by Tasha on Apr 1, 2014 4:42:30 GMT
Yeah, the must pay points for every little BS effect hurt 6e in some ways. Mostly Skill Levels were screwed by this mentality. Making buying Raw CV cheaper than the Skill level which was a HUGE mistake IMHO.
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Post by CRTaylor on Apr 1, 2014 14:12:29 GMT
I like the idea that came up on the Facebook page of naming everything "Champions" instead of generic Hero. Champions is still a pretty well known name and game, so you could have "Fantasy Champions" and "Pulp Champions" etc to take advantage of the familiarity.
Regarding points, I figure points are the cost for getting anything significant or outstanding for your character beyond the norm for humans. You want to be able to change your clothes in a few seconds, or speak Swahili, or swat bullets aside, you're going to need to pay for it.
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kravenkor
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"We're making a better world; all of them. Better worlds."
Posts: 92
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Post by kravenkor on Apr 1, 2014 14:14:47 GMT
I agree on the cost of CV vs. CSL's, to an extent; but 10 points for "+1 All Combat" that can offer +1 OCV, +1 DCV, or +1/2 of a DC vs. 5 points for just one of those three things does make some sense. Some.
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