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Post by Thia Halmades on Feb 14, 2014 1:12:37 GMT
So, two things.
First: 6th is probably the best edition of the rules to date in terms of being authoritative, comprehensive, and really nailing down everything you could need to know about how a given power works, and how it interacts with the system. In that, we really nailed it, and I was happy. We removed some kludge, got some things rebalanced, and it worked. The downside (and I say this without rancor) is that it's not written to gamers, but to rules adjudicators. That is "what it is," as we say in the lexicon. Everyone wants a smaller book, but when I go to the text, everything I need to know is there.
Could it be more concise?
Yah. It could be more concise, there are plenty of things that could likely be sacrificed in the name of space, but.
He said.
But. That wouldn't necessarily make a better product; I get when people say "I wish it were smaller," and I get that I am in a minority of precisely 1 when I don't agree out of the gate. That's a story for another time, though.
If I were to overhaul, I agree in part with Chris that OGL is a good idea, but we saw it blow WOTC up and create an all new Empire of Evil with Pathfinder, so there's a clear downside there, and Hyperman is spot-on when he says you can't make money if you're giving the stuff away for free. For me, I'd want to see everything OTHER than 6th and non-updated books go to OGL. So, 1st - 5th, all splat books, everything, goes to OGL. If there is a business decision to not update a text from 5th to 6th (ie, the Energy Powers book the name of which straight escapes me at the moment) that gets left off. Hence, people can try before they buy, get vetted in the system, still purchase things that are new and current, but no one is going to cry because someone wants to play 4th Ed Champions; in effect, that's sunk cost. The book is out, it's done. Doesn't matter if they buy it for 0.50 at a yard sale or download it off a torrent; if it's on your site at the very least you can generate traffic.
Traffic generates interest.
Interest leads to revenue.
Revenue... leads to suffering.
Wait. Wrong film.
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Post by Thia Halmades on Feb 14, 2014 1:14:31 GMT
Duplicative. I'll put something more interesting that isn't redundant later on.
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Post by Tasha on Feb 14, 2014 9:55:54 GMT
Instead of OGL, they should do pretty liberal Licencing. Let anyone make a product and work with them to make sure that it's not Crap. Crap product was the real bane of OGL. Crap Products nearly killed gaming all over again.
I like the big Blue Encyclopedia edition of 6e. I can look everything up and get an answer. It's a PITA to carry around though. For day to day gaming and to show gamers who might be frightened by the BBE 6e volumes. For that I carry around Champions Complete.
The folk at Hero should IMHO be taking a long look at what Pinnacle is doing with Savage Worlds. They do release Genre books, but they also release these Plot Point adventures that allow Players to do their own thing, while stuff they might want to do is going on in the background. There's also a ton of innovation with their various licencees (including our own Blackworm publishing who is busy converting a ton of Hero system sourcebooks for use with Savage worlds)
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mhd
New Member
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Post by mhd on Feb 14, 2014 12:58:45 GMT
I don't think OGL would create a huge mass of products, crap or not, for a game like HERO. So I wouldn't be worried about bad products. And generally, a "liberal" license with veto rights is almost indistinguishable from none at all, at least for smaller games. It's basically "you don't have to pay fees if we like your product", which I don't think most games beyond the really big ones can do anyways. Also it's not just about additional products, it's about re-using game content. Let's say I want to make a character generator for the iPad. First of all, I'd be worried about getting veto'd/C&D'd because HERO is publishing a competitive product. And secondly, I probably couldn't legally use a lot of the descriptions or even the names of the powers. If HERO were an OGL game, I'd be programming right now.
Regarding format, I wonder how much you'd have to cut out of Champions Complete to make a small format book (think FATE or Savage Worlds EE). Personally I would consider "reversing" the 6E offering: Put all the rules and the basic character generation in the first book, then Powers and sample characters/settings in the second one.
I'm too much of a newbie to comment a lot on the rules. I would argue for a unified mechanism, if you're targetting new players.
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bluesguy
Double Digit Master
Just joined
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Post by bluesguy on Feb 14, 2014 14:25:21 GMT
Let's say I want to make a character generator for the iPad. First of all, I'd be worried about getting veto'd/C&D'd because HERO is publishing a competitive product. And secondly, I probably couldn't legally use a lot of the descriptions or even the names of the powers. Have you ever contacted them privately to ask. That is how I approached them about HCM.
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Post by Thia Halmades on Feb 14, 2014 15:58:55 GMT
We all want HERO Designer for the IPad. I'm doing this on an iPad. I use my iPad in lieu of my laptop about 80% of the time (the other 20%, hey! Hero stuff!) So consider that you can build it, as a fan, but you can't sell it, and you have to say things like "All Rights Reserved."
You CAN make whatever you want. You CAN post it for the world to use. You CAN'T make money off of it without licensing and permission.
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Post by Tasha on Feb 15, 2014 0:40:12 GMT
We all want HERO Designer for the IPad. I'm doing this on an iPad. I use my iPad in lieu of my laptop about 80% of the time (the other 20%, hey! Hero stuff!) So consider that you can build it, as a fan, but you can't sell it, and you have to say things like "All Rights Reserved." You CAN make whatever you want. You CAN post it for the world to use. You CAN'T make money off of it without licensing and permission. Take a look at what Chris is working on down in the Software board. Hero Lab will eventually open up it's iPad app to other game systems. IMHO this is the best way to go. I guess we are hoping that as a freebie thingie it will be treated like Excel Character builder spreadsheets.
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Post by Thia Halmades on Feb 15, 2014 12:22:26 GMT
I can. Ann I woll!
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 16, 2014 4:53:55 GMT
I think what hurt WOTC more than anything else was 4th edition. Pathfinder got huge because people looked at 4th D&D and went "this is trash" while Pathfinder was putting out 3.x edition stuff still. It gave them the game they wanted, and who cares what the name is? They cut their own throats trying to simplify the game and turn it into tabletop MMOG. Just dumb.
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Post by Tasha on Feb 16, 2014 8:42:33 GMT
They were actually trying to bring the feel of a CCG into a RPG. It actually worked. I have read interviews with the lead developer that say just that.
4e plays NOTHING like a MMORPG.
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 17, 2014 0:51:35 GMT
I guess I don't see the distinction between a computer "RPG" and an MMO"RPG" being that obvious and clear.
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gojira
Double Digit Master
in a rubber monster suit.
Posts: 85
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Post by gojira on Feb 17, 2014 2:44:39 GMT
I think CCG is "collectible card game," not computer game.
Maybe you knew that, but I don't feel any CCG plays like an MMORPG.
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 17, 2014 3:23:53 GMT
Ah, ok. Hmm doesn't feel anything like a card game to me, feels like a computer game to me - and most reviewers I read. Never heard anything about the Collectible Card Game intent.
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Hyper-Man
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FREAK OUT!!!
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Post by Hyper-Man on Feb 17, 2014 3:31:15 GMT
I really like figured characteristics too, but I have to admit that removing them makes things easier, especially templates, where you now just add up the stats (whereas before you had to account for the figured characteristics too, which made things messy in many cases). But I actually wish Steve had gone further. Two points of PD and ED by default is just piddly and makes tracking stats more difficult. It means that your stun defense is always going to be 2 points more than your armor: why? And CV and ECV starting at 3. Same difference if everyone starts at 0: it's still 11- to hit a CV equal to yours, so why start at 3? Yes everyone has to have some REC, END, STUN, etc. so those are fine, but things could be even more simple than they are now with just a bit more out-of-box thinking. I think a simple solution that issue would be to say that the starting values don't save you any points when you choose to exceed those values.. Just make EVERYTHING function like Everyman Skills. You just have to figure out how many MORE points to give starting characters to compensate.
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Post by Thia Halmades on Feb 17, 2014 16:30:51 GMT
They were actually trying to bring the feel of a CCG into a RPG. It actually worked. I have read interviews with the lead developer that say just that. 4e plays NOTHING like a MMORPG. I disagree with part of your premise here and agree with CTaylor in that I get no CCG flavor out of 4th Ed, and I play a couple of CCGs very aggressively and have played others throughout my time in the gaming space. Before 4th Ed, no one had "anytime" "instance" and "daily" powers; that language reminds people very strongly (myself included) of the MMO world, and the more I reviewed the breakdown, and the overly simplified build mechanics, it did, for me, look like a conversion of an MMO into a PNP. Now, would a CCG work in an RPG format? Sure would, Lord of the Rings: The Card Game does it very well and at a high level, and they just did the new Pathfinder Card Game. Both of those are excellent, co-op experiences, and I would not have associated either of them with 4th Edition. If they wanted to inject the CCG mold into PNP format, I feel that they missed the mark there.
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