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Post by Tasha on Feb 5, 2014 22:47:17 GMT
The problem IMHO with Simplification is that sometimes (like with the current situation with Transfer), The simplification actually makes things MUCH more complicated.
This is similar to what some folk proposed on the AOL hero boards were the system would have like 4 powers. Damage, Defense, Movement and something else. You would make all of the other powers with adders and Advantages. The problem with this is that while it's very simple it makes building powers much more difficult for noobies.
People never really complain about how many powers Hero has. It's all about the Multiplication and Division that's required to build powers. Requiring that basic math makes the system seem much more complicated than it really is. Which is why I think that Steve Petersen was barking up the right tree with his Power system in both Robot Warriors and later in Fuzion. Adding DC's or subtracting DC's from a power makes things very easy to understand.
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gojira
Double Digit Master
in a rubber monster suit.
Posts: 85
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Post by gojira on Feb 5, 2014 23:11:10 GMT
I was reading a book recently about software engineering (I think specifically about requirements collection) where it likened software engineering to traditional wine making in Italy. The adage they quoted from traditional wine makers: "Making wine is simple, but not easy."
I'd also say the same about using too small numbers of powers: it makes the game simpler, but not easy.
I think it works better to have the right number of powers (how many that is depends on experimentation; try it and get feedback what works and what doesn't). Right now there seems to be a few cases where a power should be split into two powers just for clarity and ease of use.
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 6, 2014 5:29:25 GMT
Aid usable to give people powers is a handy mechanic that fades on its own and doesn't need maintenance, an alternate version of the concept than usable by others. But the Curse idea is really clunky with transform. I'd suggest it be its own construct based on Drain rather than a Drain alternate (just another adjustment power). Its a bit weird but with tinkering around and trying some builds I've found it to be fascinating and a very handy tool. Its not really just Fantasy Hero related either, its any power that makes people worse in some way. But it has an automatic device to make it go away, too.
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Post by Tasha on Feb 8, 2014 10:39:26 GMT
It might be interesting to change how Adjustment powers fade. Go instead to a fade at the rate of healing, then limit the ability for faster Fade rates. It would be one way to bring Adjustment power mechanics into line with the rest of the Damage Abilities. Also make all Adjustment powers including Healing be Cumulative by default.
Otherwise you end up using Transform to cause any permanent changes to a person. This suggests that perhaps the Mechanics for Adjustment powers are flawed in some way. Doing this you could make a drain to Presence for a more or less permanent Blind effect.
Another HUGE change I would make with Adjustment powers has to do with Poisons, Drugs and Diseases. I would make them a plain Drain without NND. This would allow us to remove resistances from Life Support. We could then use Power Defense as resistance and limit the PwrDef for specific resistances. It also gets rid of the annoying all or nothing thing we now have going on with Poisons etc. We should always look toward removing all or nothing effects from the system. It again will help make the system more internally consistent.
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Post by indianajoe on Feb 9, 2014 16:11:25 GMT
Another HUGE change I would make with Adjustment powers has to do with Poisons, Drugs and Diseases. I would make them a plain Drain without NND. This would allow us to remove resistances from Life Support. We could then use Power Defense as resistance and limit the PwrDef for specific resistances. It also gets rid of the annoying all or nothing thing we now have going on with Poisons etc. We should always look toward removing all or nothing effects from the system. It again will help make the system more internally consistent. I've considered reworking Power Defense as Exotic Defense. It would be defined by the GM on a campaign basis, as needed (Poison Defense, Arcane Defense, etc).
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gojira
Double Digit Master
in a rubber monster suit.
Posts: 85
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Post by gojira on Feb 10, 2014 3:05:05 GMT
They actually had that for one of the 4th edition supplements. Power defense was reworked into Spirit Defense for explicit use against Spirit Transforms. I think it was specifically things like astral plane walk and reincarnation they were trying to simulate -- transforming your spirit into a detached one from your body (astral projection), or transforming your spirit back into a living body (reincarnation). I think they did something like give Power Defense a +1 Advantage "Also Works As This Type Of Exotic Defense" and then a -1 "Only Works As This Type of Exotic Defense" with the net result being that Spirit Defense cost 1 character point for 1 point of defense and only counted as Spirit Defense, not Power Defense.
I like Tasha's idea for Drain and disease. While a CON roll (or something similar) works well, a lot of players are going to want some additional protection, and NND style where the power either works fully or is blocked fully doesn't really match how many players like to play. For example, most fantasy players expect something like Disease Resistance for their Dwarves and Paladins, and using Power Defense for the Drain would simulate that really well.
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Post by Tasha on Feb 10, 2014 7:38:01 GMT
They actually had that for one of the 4th edition supplements. Power defense was reworked into Spirit Defense for explicit use against Spirit Transforms. I think it was specifically things like astral plane walk and reincarnation they were trying to simulate -- transforming your spirit into a detached one from your body (astral projection), or transforming your spirit back into a living body (reincarnation). I think they did something like give Power Defense a +1 Advantage "Also Works As This Type Of Exotic Defense" and then a -1 "Only Works As This Type of Exotic Defense" with the net result being that Spirit Defense cost 1 character point for 1 point of defense and only counted as Spirit Defense, not Power Defense. I like Tasha's idea for Drain and disease. While a CON roll (or something similar) works well, a lot of players are going to want some additional protection, and NND style where the power either works fully or is blocked fully doesn't really match how many players like to play. For example, most fantasy players expect something like Disease Resistance for their Dwarves and Paladins, and using Power Defense for the Drain would simulate that really well. Also like many things in this system Poisons and diseases were designed for Champions first. The way that you make a poison or disease frightening for PC's that may have Power Defense is make the drain an NND. That doesn't make as much sense in a Heroic game. Like I said I really dislike Absolutes in the System. We really should eliminate the ones that exist. Here's another brainbender. How about using Damage Negation with an adder instead of Desolid? It would allow PC's to define how desolid they are. It would fix issues with Desolid Characters interacting with the solid world. Also it would allow PC's and NPC's to buy the anti Negation defense for powers (forgetting it's name)
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 10, 2014 18:02:39 GMT
I personally think Power Defense covers too much ground for too cheap. For 10 points you're basically immune to soul affecting powers, poisons, crippling strikes, transformations and ten thousand other special effects. Since adjustment powers are so expensive, its incredibly cheap to ignore them. I know people always say "well ED does the same thing!" but it doesn't. You need resistant ED to protect against killing attacks, it doesn't ignore all forms of energy, just non killing ones.
I'd consider something like this instead: Power defense against all adjustment powers = 3 points per 2 defense Power defense against a single special effect (poison, for example) = 1 point per 1 defense
That would give the power more difference against various attacks instead of being the complete catch-all defense.
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Post by Tasha on Feb 11, 2014 6:29:37 GMT
I personally think Power Defense covers too much ground for too cheap. For 10 points you're basically immune to soul affecting powers, poisons, crippling strikes, transformations and ten thousand other special effects. Since adjustment powers are so expensive, its incredibly cheap to ignore them. I know people always say "well ED does the same thing!" but it doesn't. You need resistant ED to protect against killing attacks, it doesn't ignore all forms of energy, just non killing ones. I'd consider something like this instead: Power defense against all adjustment powers = 3 points per 2 defense Power defense against a single special effect (poison, for example) = 1 point per 1 defense That would give the power more difference against various attacks instead of being the complete catch-all defense. What special effects that Power Defense covers is really irrelevant. You could point out as many special effects and more for Resistant Defense. Actually many NND's require hard Resistant armor or Force Fields. It does work with all sorts of Energy attacks (and Physical Attacks). Power defense is cheap because Adjustment powers are fairly rare given all of the special effects that adjustment power cover. IMHO there's no reason to make them more expensive. Perhaps instead of Poisons, diseases etc using plain power defense, they should be AVLD vs Resistant Power Defense. It cranks up the rarity of the defense and still fills the need to have those attacks scary for supers.
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Post by indianajoe on Feb 11, 2014 11:39:50 GMT
Here's an idea... what about representing disease as a Drain that used CON as a defense?
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Post by Chris Goodwin on Feb 11, 2014 16:20:27 GMT
Here's an idea... what about representing disease as a Drain that used CON as a defense? Yeah, but I think CON is too high. Maybe some fraction of CON...? Like, say, CON/5? <g,dfc,rlh>
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Post by Tasha on Feb 11, 2014 23:34:08 GMT
Here's an idea... what about representing disease as a Drain that used CON as a defense? Yeah, but I think CON is too high. Maybe some fraction of CON...? Like, say, CON/5? < g,dfc,rlh> LOL and then we go and reinvent the wheel. ED FTW! If I didn't already dislike how Mental Powers work, I would suggest making poisons use the table from Mental Powers. =Con- Slightly sickened -1 on all rolls Con +10 More sick -2 on all rolls Con +20 Really sick. Can only take half phase actions -3 on all rolls etc. I don't really care for how Mental powers work. They really don't scale well and require DC10 to even have a prayer of working. Don't know how I would fix them, but scaling for them sucks.
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gojira
Double Digit Master
in a rubber monster suit.
Posts: 85
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Post by gojira on Feb 13, 2014 17:15:55 GMT
Cumulative and Increased Maximum Effect will reduce the need for DC 10 mental powers. For 30 points, you can get 3d6 Mental powers that are Cumulative and have a max effect of 72. That'll overcome all but the highest EGO scores. But then it's less fun too -- you're guaranteed your maximum effect eventually, you just have to wait.
I've seen comments elsewhere that Hero gets more fun if you make it more random and shy away from the tight bell curves that Xd6 gives you. STR vs. STR contest rather than counting body, using a d20 for To-Hit rolls. I wonder if that would help things.
Just thinking out loud, I wonder too if a skill vs skill roll should be required for each step of Cumulative, it seems over-powered as currently written.
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Post by Chris Goodwin on Feb 13, 2014 17:29:44 GMT
For Mental Powers, how about this: if you don't hit your desired level, it does at least shift the level needed. Example: You're trying to hit someone for EGO+30 with a +10 rider, for EGO+40 total. You roll and hit EGO+20. You don't get your effect, but your next try only needs EGO+20.
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Post by CRTaylor on Feb 13, 2014 18:35:17 GMT
Cumulative can be powerful, but isn't generally, because it takes time that combat usually doesn't allow. If it takes you 7 rolls to get what you want, you're probably not ever going to get there. For non-combat abilities, it can be extremely powerful (yes, that aid is weak, but eventually it will make him a god).
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