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Post by Chris Goodwin on Jan 26, 2014 23:23:04 GMT
I'm creating this thread because I thought the Dark Champions board looked lonely with no posts.
My old game group back in the 1980's used Danger International as our go-to book for pretty much everything that wasn't superheroes, fantasy, or pulp. There were a lot of different games using that book.
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Post by Sketchpad on Jan 27, 2014 1:18:24 GMT
I really miss DI. While I only ever ran a single game of it, I loved the book and thought that a new edition would've been a great addition to the current Hero System.
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Post by Derek Hiemforth on Jan 27, 2014 2:08:23 GMT
I miss DI too, though I think it might be a tough book to revisit post-Cold War. Despite the level of spying and surveillance nowadays, it seems much more "detached" and less "spy vs. spy" than it was back in the day. I think such a book could be done, but I think you'd have to find just the right angle to approach it....
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Post by Sketchpad on Jan 27, 2014 3:43:42 GMT
I think it could work if it takes a cue from action flicks done in the same vein, such as Bond, Bourne, Tom Clancy's stuff, etc.
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Post by CRTaylor on Jan 27, 2014 20:51:25 GMT
Yeah, plenty of spy stuff out there, more now than ever it seems like. Its just a different list of bad guys and more toys. DI is a great project and its odd it was basically let go.
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Post by Tasha on Jan 28, 2014 0:13:56 GMT
Well Dark Champions 4e was one of the most popular books ever released for Champions. So much so they decided to keep the name when it came time to do the Replacement book for Danger International. I don't know how much ego was involved in the choice, but it was explained that DC was a better name to get people to buy it. I guess you were one of the many who thought it was low powered champions and not the Sourcebook for Heroic Level Modern non-superheroic Gaming. That's why it has the mega Gun table and all of the modern genre package deals.
Heck with that thought they should have used Champions in every Genre book. Ie Champions Fantasy, Pulp Champions. Star Champions, Urban Fantasy Champions etc. Who know they might have sold better...
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Post by Derek Hiemforth on Jan 28, 2014 2:31:48 GMT
Heck with that thought they should have used Champions in every Genre book. Ie Champions Fantasy, Pulp Champions. Star Champions, Urban Fantasy Champions etc. Who know they might have sold better... Actually, I think this is exactly what they should have done. (Way back in the day, that is; by the time DOJ took over, that horse was long out of the barn.) "Espionage!" should have been Spy Champions or some such. Justice, Inc. should have been Pulp Champions, Fantasy Hero should have been Fantasy Champions, etc. The name everyone knew, associated with the company, and thought of the rules as was "Champions." Instead of pushing "Champions" as meaning the superhero genre and "HERO System" meaning the rules engine, they should have pushed "Champions" as meaning the game in general. Instead of, "Hey, here's a fantasy game using the HERO System," it should have been, "Here's a book that lets you use the Champions rules to play fantasy." Champions was a huge hit. They should never have watered down that name recognition, IMO. There are still people who think of the game as "Champions," and have no idea what the "HERO System" is. (Which is actually one of the reasons for Champions Complete....)
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Post by Tasha on Jan 28, 2014 3:23:20 GMT
I don't think it ever occurred to them to do so. When Champions, Espionage! and Justice Inc all started the Game industry was far different. Once GURPS became popular I am sure that the thought was to show that Hero was as good of a Universal System as GURPS.
While I agree that Champions has a ton of name recognition. Anything with the Champions names seems to insinuate that it's a Superheroic game no matter what other genre is attached to the main name. I guess that might be possible to overcome, but it would/does color the perception of anyone buying a rulebook. Again, it might be fun to run Superheroic Fantasy Champions or Star Champions (hell my Star Wars Hero was StarWars Champions)
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Post by Derek Hiemforth on Jan 28, 2014 5:25:07 GMT
Anything with the Champions names seems to insinuate that it's a Superheroic game no matter what other genre is attached to the main name. Now it does, because that's how it's been for 30+ years. But there's nothing inherent about the word "Champions" that presumes comic-book superheroics. A "champion" is a warrior who fights duels on behalf of someone else -- typically a noble (which implies fantasy if anything), or it's a victor at something (which could apply to all sorts of genres). It's not like the original game was called "Caped Super-People of Justice!" or something....
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Post by CRTaylor on Jan 28, 2014 5:44:04 GMT
Champions means just Superheros now but I think that would go away pretty quickly if it was re-branded. A new edition using that instead of hero would work well. The problem is by this point Champions isn't really the premier and go-to superhero system like it used to be. Its still what people think of but there are good competitors out there now like Mutants and Masterminds.
Honestly though I didn't really connect Dark Champions to Danger, International because it was so plainly focused on superheroes. I saw it as a dark vigilante version of Champions where you play the Punisher or Azrael, not spy stuff. It certainly can be used that way, but it wasn't really the focus.
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Post by jamesgillen on Jan 28, 2014 7:03:37 GMT
Heck with that thought they should have used Champions in every Genre book. Ie Champions Fantasy, Pulp Champions. Star Champions, Urban Fantasy Champions etc. Who know they might have sold better... Actually, I think this is exactly what they should have done. (Way back in the day, that is; by the time DOJ took over, that horse was long out of the barn.) "Espionage!" should have been Spy Champions or some such. Justice, Inc. should have been Pulp Champions, Fantasy Hero should have been Fantasy Champions, etc. The name everyone knew, associated with the company, and thought of the rules as was "Champions." Instead of pushing "Champions" as meaning the superhero genre and "HERO System" meaning the rules engine, they should have pushed "Champions" as meaning the game in general. Instead of, "Hey, here's a fantasy game using the HERO System," it should have been, "Here's a book that lets you use the Champions rules to play fantasy." Champions was a huge hit. They should never have watered down that name recognition, IMO. There are still people who think of the game as "Champions," and have no idea what the "HERO System" is. (Which is actually one of the reasons for Champions Complete....) Indeed. Dark Champions is for all practical purposes the successor to DI, in the same way that Pulp HERO is Justice, Inc.. From what I gather the common thread was supposed to be more "HERO" than "Champions", and the fact that Dark Champions broke that mold makes me wonder why. They either should have taken your suggestion or called the modern-heroic game Action HERO since it's just as much about military and martial-arts scenarios as it is about Iron Age vigilantes. JG
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Post by Tasha on Jan 29, 2014 0:41:22 GMT
Espionage and Justice Inc, were kind of bumps in the road. Champions meant superheroic Gaming from the moment that it hit the marketplace. I can't think of a time when people wouldn't have assumed that a Game with Champions in it's title wasn't a Superheroic game.
Perhaps Danger International should have been Action Hero or Action Champions (remember that Dark Champions was a 4th edition book, it's predecessor was Super Agents). Originally Dark Champions was All about Street Level Superheroics. Like The Punisher etc. In 5e Steve Decided that Dark Champions would be the Modern, Action, Spy, Super Agents book. As we can see many potential buyers Assumed that it was just Super Agents and Street Level Supers. When people asked Why Dark Champions. We were told that Champions has a lot of brand recognition and they wanted to use that to help sell the book.
Perhaps Hero/DOJ SHOULD release a Fantasy Champions Complete. Include discussions about how to run campaigns of all powerlevels. From 50pt beginning Heroes, all of the way to 500pt characters that can take on Dragons, Greater Demons etc. Include a Game world that could be expanded etc.
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Post by tikiman on May 3, 2014 19:57:09 GMT
Vis-a-vis the name, to me "Dark Champions" (and the artwork I have seen) conjures sh*tty Image/'90s comic books, that whole "grimdark" Punisher/g*ddam Batman/Venom/Carnage genre that allowed me to save hundreds or thousands of dollars as I quit reading comics altogether. So I dunno if that's a very good name. Doesn't evoke espionage or action heroes at all to me, whereas "Danger International" or "Espionage" does.
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Post by CRTaylor on May 3, 2014 23:51:01 GMT
It does have the advantage of being named Champions though; following through on the use of "Champions" instead of "Hero" as the product line. Probably "Street Champions" would be better though, I agree it has too much an image of huge shoulderpads and gritted teeth.
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Post by tikiman on May 4, 2014 0:24:15 GMT
Street Champions doesn't evike spies or action heroes to me either...actually makes me think of "The Warriors" and "Lords of Flatbush" and stuff like that...
I have no research or statistics: does the name "Champions" actually carry any weight in the market? Seems like Hero abandoned it with 5th edition, at least to me as a casual observer. Sometimes I think they'd have been better off treating the genres as separate but compatible games like they were in the '80s, where you get a complete game when you buy the book (which they did with the wonderful Lucha Libre Hero) instead of putting out that 2-volume textbook sans setting and then offering up those "splatbooks" that GURPS does so much better anyway. Is Champions (the name) anything meaningful anymore? I don't hear many younger players mention it; usually I hear about M&M if it's super heroes.
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